Ayten Dersim, a member of the Kurdistan Free Women's Party (PAJK) Coordination, while Çiğdem Doğu, a member of the Executive Council of the Kurdistan Women’s Communities (KJK). The two women spoke about the martyrs of June and the struggle for socialism in an interview with Medya Haber TV.

Part one of this interview can be read here.

Çiğdem Doğu: I would like to begin by commemorating all the June martyrs with respect, love, and gratitude, especially in the names of comrade Zîlan, comrade Sema, and comrade Gulan. This moment also marks the hundredth anniversary of the execution of Sheikh Said and his companions. Their execution represents the beginning of a historical process. We remember them, too, with deep respect and gratitude. Our struggle has continued from where they left off, and it still moves forward in that spirit

For example, there is the reality of comrade Zîlan. She wrote letters, letters in which she spoke of many things, including, repeatedly, the search for a meaningful life. This is true for all of our martyrs. I also had the chance to know comrade Gulan personally. The same goes for comrades Leyla, Bêrîvan, Raperîn, and Helmet.

One cannot speak about every comrade in a single program, but within the reality of this struggle, we have known many comrades who later fell as martyrs. Each of them leaves behind a profound sense of meaning, especially when we face the reality of martyrdom. We are speaking of comrade Zîlan, of comrade Sema, of the things they wrote, of the thoughts they expressed in their letters. There is an immense depth of meaning in all of it.

So why do we ask these questions? Why is there such a profound search for meaning? Why such an intense need for meaning? President Öcalan began each of his defense writings with the phrase ‘Truth and Method.’ That is, in itself, a search for meaning. And in his most recent manifesto, he opened with the title ‘Nature and Meaning.’ This is the very expression of the martyrs and the values that have emerged through the realities of Kurdistan, of the Kurdish people, and of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).

Why is there such a deep search for meaning? Why? Because there exists a colonial reality that has not only erased the country of Kurdistan, the reality of the Kurdish people, the Kurdish individual, and the Kurdish woman but has pushed them below zero, stripping them of all meaning.

The history of denial has been overcome but the duties of liberation are still awaiting us

One can also evaluate it like this: Sheikh Said led a great uprising. But what kind of uprising was it, actually? It was an uprising in response to the newly emerging conditions after the First World War and a reflection of the Kurdish people's desire to take a position in the face of these conditions. After all, Kurds already have a place in the Middle East that goes back thousands of years. And while the uprising was developed from a place of defending and protecting this, a destruction operation was carried out in return. And we know that with the suppression and execution of Sheikh Said’s uprising, a history of denial began in the name of the Republic of Turkey.

President Öcalan defines this in his last manifesto as a ‘veiled history.’ He says it is a history that has been covered up. And Sheikh Said, let’s say, the early 1920s, especially the uprisings of Sheikh Said and Seyid Riza, and what followed, represent a hundred-year historical process that developed as a history of denial. Therefore, there is a great effort of de-identification and meaninglessness. A very deep meaninglessness… That is why the PKK actually emerged in response to this meaninglessness. It is a rebellion movement that emerged against the meaninglessness imposed on life, on people’s identity, on women’s identity, even on men’s identity.

President Öcalan often expresses this in connection with the most recent process he initiated. He says, ‘The PKK is a movement of rebellion that emerged against denial, and it has overcome this denial.’ In this sense, it has fulfilled its role and mission. So yes, this history of denial has been surpassed, but at the same time, the struggle for freedom and the duties of liberation are still waiting for us. In this sense, our duties are not yet complete. But the PKK has played its role in this regard.

And the reality of comrade Zîlan, comrade Sema, comrade Gulan, our June martyrs, and the struggle as a whole, in other words, all the martyrdoms that have emerged throughout the 52-year history of the PKK, are also the values created through the struggle against denial and meaninglessness. Each one of them is a meaning. Each one creates a great value of meaning. That is why they both surpassed denial and paved the way for liberation. They showed us the way, they created such a value. In this sense, the more one thinks, the more one can create meaning within oneself.

This is what meaning actually is. You know how President Öcalan said, ‘nature and meaning.’ So what is meaning? A person, ontologically and epistemologically, that is, in terms of being and giving meaning, thinking, and being able to think about thinking, creates meaning by reflecting on a reality. That is what meaning is. Let’s pay attention: is there meaning in a person who does not think? Can you find meaning in a person who does not think? No. Meaning exists in the person who thinks. A person is human because they think, right? So what creates the meaning of being human? It is your ability to think, your morality, your social nature, your communality… These are what define the difference.

The capitalist system is attacking the meaning of being human

Therefore, especially each of our self-sacrificing martyrs are our values who revealed this meaning with great costs, sacrifices, and courage. They create meaning. That is why, the more we talk about these comrades and our martyrs, the more meaning emerges.

There is a reality of meaninglessness created by capitalism, a reality of rendering life meaningless… It is like this for women, for men, for children, for young people, for the reality of families. It is like this for the entirety of life, in all relationships.

What is life? It is actually the reality of relationship. Life expresses an organizational, holistic reality. Within this entire organization of relationships, the difference of being human lies in the fact that the human creates meaning in every one of their relationships and contradictions. That is our difference. From any insect, from any other living being, surely they also have a meaning in their own way but after all, every living being differs from one another.

Being human has such a difference too. Therefore, the capitalist system is attacking exactly the meaning of being human. The capitalist system attacks in such a way that it standardizes everything as if it all came out of a mold, from a factory. It homogenizes. It leaves no difference behind. Yet difference creates meaning.

Each of us is a woman, we represent an identity. The meaning of each of us lies in our difference. But it also lies in our unity. There is a level of meaning that lies in the unity of our differences. Capitalism attacks this the most. It attacks this the most and homogenizes you. It makes you the same. ‘You are the same, you are the same…’ Your clothing, your facial expressions, your behavior, your walking, your way of eating are all the same. For example, let’s pay attention: cultural differences are disappearing on a global level now, aren’t they? Yet every culture has such beautiful richness… Each one has great value.

For example, they are now trying to instill this as a culture among the youth as well. ‘I am a Kurd, but what does it matter? I am a human being.’ Or they say, ‘I am a citizen of the world.’ Or, ‘I’m a Turkmen, what difference does it make? I’m a human being.’ Or, ‘I’m a woman; what difference is there from a man?’ they say. How can there be no difference? Of course there is. Isn’t there a difference between a German and a Turkmen? There is. What I’m saying is not in terms of opposition. It’s about meaning in terms of creating difference… The difference in language is a beauty, for example. The difference in culture is a beauty. One person is different from another. That is their beauty, and that is where their meaning lies.

In fact, one could also say this: in a sense, the person themself is paving the way for fascism. Because fascism also tries to standardize society, to turn it into a mass. But when a person does this willingly, they are also supporting fascism. And that is the most dangerous part of it. It places you in such a vice, in such a special warfare mechanism; it bombards you and makes you think you’re the one making the decisions. But in reality, fascism, through the personality traits it creates, builds such a ground. By eliminating sociality and producing individualism, it turns you into a willing slave of the system through these homogenizing, standardizing policies. And perhaps you’re not even aware of it.

From the perspective of Kurdish history and Kurdish reality, for example, there is a policy being implemented in Kurdistan: a policy of ‘de-Kurdistanization,’ that is, ‘de-Kurdification of Kurdistan.’ This is done demographically through forced migration, and more dangerously, though you are a Kurd, you become distanced from Kurdish identity. Sometimes you say you are Kurdish, but in fact, you have no connection left with Kurdishness. Totally collaborative… President Öcalan describes this as ‘Judenrat.’ Meaning yes, you call yourself Kurdish, but you no longer have any relation to Kurds. You have no connection left to Kurdish society.

Your country is being plundered to this extent, looted, your geography is under such attack, your forests have been burned, your trees cut down, dams built everywhere! Just saying ‘I am a Kurd, but…’ is not enough. You must embrace your country fully. You must live in it, defend its values, defend its language… And not just defend it, but develop the language, defend the culture. Against every kind of attack… What are these? These are acts of creating meaning.

The struggle of the Sheikh Saids was also a struggle to create meaning

When we look at the reality of martyrdom, when we look at the self-sacrificing martyrs, what kind of struggle did they actually wage? They said ‘no’ to all this meaninglessness. Comrade Zîlan said ‘no’ to it. And the Sheikh Saids said ‘no’ to it a hundred years ago. Surely, there were shortcomings and inadequacies in terms of their methods of struggle. We also have shortcomings in our own struggle. But they were people who fought, who rebelled in their own time. They didn’t have the strength. The enemy attacked rapidly, and so on. But their struggle was also a struggle to create meaning. And the struggle carried out by our comrades within the PKK is of the same nature.

Therefore, the fact that in Kurdistan the denial has been overcome and we are now on the path of liberation, that this struggle is being waged, is a very significant point. Comrade Zîlan, comrade Sema, comrade Gulan, in fact, all our martyrs, opened this path for us. Today in Kurdistan, we have entered a period where meaning is being created more deeply, beautified, and where the personality of freedom is being shaped. We can say this. And of course, it is thanks to these comrades that we were able to do so.