In the third part of this interview, Mustafa Karasu, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the Iraq-Turkey agreement, the ongoing genocide practice against Kurdish people and the recent visit of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to Turkey.

The first part of this interview can be read here, and the second here. 

Looking at the recent Ankara visit and the agreement signed, it seems that Iraq, which has assumed a certain role in these invasion attacks, will continue this attitude and may even advance it further. What kind of dangers does the current Iraqi government expose Iraq and the Iraqi people to?

They have made an agreement, and it seems that they want to take it even further. It is mainly the policies of the KDP that have brought Iraq to this point. Turkey and the KDP together put pressure on Iraq in order to drag it into this war. The KDP was always trying to involve Iraq and the PUK in this. This is how it wants to achieve results. Now that they have dragged Iraq into the war, they are trying to expand this policy through the PUK. The KDP is such a power; everyone knows that. The KDP liquidates Kurdish organizations that it sees as rivals through the relations it has established with the colonialists, the enemies of the Kurds. For example, how did it expel the PUK from Hewler (Erbil)? It collaborated with Saddam. Saddam’s tanks and soldiers came, removed the members of the PUK from Hewler, and the KDP settled there. Now they are trying to do this with the help of the Turkish state. The KDP has wanted to liquidate the PUK from the very beginning. But then, when the PKK emerged on the stage of history and became a power, it wanted to focus on it first. They blackmailed Iraq, threatening that they would cooperate more with the Turkish state and cause problems for Iraq. Indeed, there is pressure and imposition from the Turkish state, but Iraq would not have come to this point if the KDP had not been involved. It was the KDP that wanted the closure of Tevgera Azadî the most. It was the KDP that had PADÊ shut down in Shengal (Sinjar). Again, it is the KDP that wants the Democratic Party in Iraq to be shut down. They inform the Turkish state and create pressure through it.

The Turkish state is now inside Iraq, and the Iraqi government approves it. The Iraqi foreign minister went to Turkey as the head of the delegation, then the foreign minister of the Kurdistan Regional Government has gone, and there were some other KDP members of the delegation. That is Fuat Hussein’s KDP policy. Why did Fuat Hussein go? Why did the foreign minister of the KDP go? They are clearly like advisors to the Iraqi government on “how to wage war against the PKK.” They are collaborating with the Turkish state. The current Iraqi government seems to have really poor knowledge and reading of history. It seems not to be aware of the reality of the Turkish state and puts politics on daily events. At the moment, the Turkish state uses blackmail, particularly regarding water. Now it is loosening this a little bit to give the Iraqi government a small success. This policy is definitely not in Iraq’s interest.

The current government, Sudani and his deputies will regret maintaining these relations with Turkey. They will regret that they gave in to the blackmail of the KDP like this. How will Iraqi history remember them? It will not remember them in a good way. Not recognizing the reality of the Turkish state, submitting to its carrot and stick policy. The current Iraqi government has surrendered to this carrot-and-stick policy. They say that the economic sphere will be a bit more relaxed because of the relationship with Turkey, but this is just a sellout. To make this agreement with the Turkish state on the basis of finding some economic relief or opportunity means selling Iraq. In today’s world of capitalist modernity, there is too much daily and materialistic thinking.

Popular, social, national, and long-term thinking is weak. This is the situation of the current Iraqi rulers. They lack historical consciousness; they decide on their politics based on daily developments. How can you declare the PKK an enemy, a banned organization? The former Prime Minister Haider Abadi and many Iraqi officials thanked the PKK for defeating ISIS. If ISIS had not been defeated, what would be the situation in Iraq now? In Rojava, North and East Syria, the PKK played a huge role in the defeat of ISIS. Many of its fighters were sent and martyred. This is how ISIS was defeated. They gave fifteen thousand martyrs in North and East Syria; in Rojava, tens of thousands were wounded in order to defeat ISIS. Who stopped ISIS in Shengal? You were going to be the cause of genocide; the PKK saved your honor. It saved Shengal from genocide, and it saved Iraq’s honor. Now you stand up and say that the PKK is a banned organization. Is this so unprincipled, so devoid of conscience, morality, and political ethics?

Turkey will like it, and the KDP will like it. The KDP is blackmailing, supposedly to please the KDP. The more you please Turkey and the KDP, the more you sink. Pleasing them means sinking Iraq. What did Tayyip Erdoğan say to Maliki when he was in power? Maliki had criticized Turkey a little bit, and Erdoğan directly reacted, saying, “Who are you? Nobody takes you seriously. Iraq is still a country with countless problems. Who do you think takes you seriously in this condition?” He insulted the Iraqi Prime Minister. Now that he is laughing in your face, let’s see what he will say to you if you stand against Turkey and show an honorable stance. He is laughing in the faces of Iraqis for not daring to take an honorable stance. We leave them to history. They don’t realize what they are doing; they really lack a sense of history.

Let me be clear: if there was a Sunni government, it would not have surrendered so much to Turkey. Separately, right now, the Sunnis are relying on Turkey to squeeze the current government; this is true. But let’s say if there was a Sunni government, they would not have surrendered to Turkey so much. They have a higher awareness of history. They know the Turkish state better. Because, in a way, Shiites have not been very involved in politics in the history of Iraq. They have always remained outside  political dominance and political activity. The Shiites have always been outside Iraqi politics, Iraqi social struggle, economic structure, and military structure. Therefore, it seems that their historical consciousness or political consciousness is really weak.

The Iraqi people and the political forces in Iraq must resist this. Also, the Kurdish people in southern Kurdistan should see the danger of the current policies, and the political parties should be aware of this too. They should oppose these agreements between Iraq and Turkey. All Kurdish political parties must oppose it. Those who do not live actually a kind of surrender. In this respect, the PUK is also under threat.

The Iraqis say that the Turks will receive training in Bashiqa. You are fooling yourselves. You have legitimized the Turkish occupation. Who will get Turkey out of there? Do they think they will? Tomorrow, they will say that we took this place by shedding blood. “It was already ours historically.” That’s what they say; they call it Misak-i Milli. Kirkuk, Mosul, and the north of Syria are part of Misak-i Milli. There is only one difference, of course, and it is important. When Misak-i Milli was accepted, there was no Kurdish denial. There was no Kurdish denial in the Ottoman Empire. These people are not like that; they are Kurdish deniers. Abdullah Cevdet, one of the founders of the Committee of Union and Progress and the founder of the philosophical basis of Kemalism, was a Kurd from Arapgirli. When the Kurdish Teali Society was founded, Abdullah Cevdet went and congratulated them. “You are doing very well. Kurds should also develop.” He says this because there was no Kurdish denial. When they were among the founders of the Committee of Union and Progress, they were in it because there was no Kurdish denial. But today, the current Turkish state is practicing Kurdish denial. There was nothing like this in the Ottoman Empire. This is a new situation. It is a situation that emerged after the Lausanne Treaty. In this respect, they are contradicting their own history.

The fascist Turkish state continues its genocidal war against the Kurdish people on the one hand and tries to suppress the opposition inside on the other. However, after the municipal elections, AKP-MHP fascism was in a very tight situation. Can the current attitude of the opposition be considered only as obstruction or pacifism?

It is important to know what the policy of the Turkish state is now. For example, the other day, a woman was arrested for giving a street interview. When anyone speaks out, when anyone opposes the AKP, they are arrested. Every day, there are political genocidal operations in Kurdistan. People are arrested only because they are Kurdish, because they defend their identity, and because they do politics in the HDP.

The opposition is confronted with a problem. If it does not realize this, it will not be able to implement meaningful policies and will not be able to achieve results. The reason why the AKP government is so hostile to democracy is its hostility towards the Kurds. Since it is pursuing a policy of liquidation and oppression against the Kurds, it is hostile to democracy. If it wants to stand up for democracy, for a struggle for democracy and oppose the anti-democratic stance of the AKP-MHP government, but does not have a consistent Kurdish policy, then it can only fail. Then its policy will simply be futile and meaningless. The opposition must realize this. The current government opposes democracy because the Kurds could benefit from it. This means that the reason for the hostility to democracy is the lack of a solution to the Kurdish question. They will have to produce a policy based on the solution to the Kurdish question. They will have to oppose the Kurdish policy of the AKP-MHP government. Only then can they wage a consistent struggle for democracy. To what extent do they recognize this reality and take a stance against the AKP and MHP?

Look at the newspapers and magazines of the opposition; there is nothing about the Kurdish question. Why? If they bring up the Kurdish question, the AKP-MHP government will be angry at them. It can’t be like this. They speak on TV and call themselves social democrats, but when the Kurdish question comes up, their eyes turn. They are no different from AKP and MHP supporters. This is not the struggle for democracy; it is fake. In this respect, all democratic forces, if they want to wage a true and consistent struggle for democracy, should be sensitive to the Kurdish question. They should take an open attitude towards the oppression of the Kurdish people. They should make it an important part of their agenda. It cannot be the fifth or sixth item on the agenda. Whoever says they oppose the AKP government should also oppose the Kurdish hostility that characterizes the AKP-MHP government’s policies.

If you don’t put forward the right approach on the Kurdish issue, even if you oppose the AKP-MHP government, it has no political meaning and no result. In this respect, I don’t want to say too much. I emphasize that all opposition forces must have the right Kurdish policies if they struggle against the AKP-MHP or fascism. The right struggle for democracy can only be waged on this basis.

While Israel’s genocidal attacks against the Palestinian people continued, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas traveled to Turkey. He gave a speech at the Turkish Parliament. What can you say about what is happening in Palestine and Mahmoud Abbas?

Palestine is suffering great pain. We strongly condemn Israel’s current Palestinian policy. Currently, a great massacre that has reached the level of genocide is taking place. They don’t want to destroy Palestine. Mahmoud Abbas is one of the leaders of the PLO, and we respect their struggle. But expecting something from this AKP-MHP government and thinking that it supports the Palestinian struggle is a big mistake. We have taken part in the Palestinian struggle, and we gave martyrs. On the other hand, we have also received the contributions and support of the Palestinians. In this respect, there is a bond between us and the struggle of the Palestinian people. There is an emotional and historical bond. Mahmoud Abbas and everyone should be aware of this. It is the struggle waged by the leftist forces, as we have emphasized before, that has made the Palestinian question so influential in the world and that has made it embraced by the peoples of the world. It is the result of the leftist forces’ embrace of Palestine. So many people around the world have stood up for Palestine. In the late 1960s and 1970s, so many leftist and revolutionary forces from Turkey came to Palestine to support the Palestinian cause. It is precisely these forces that are being attacked the most by Erdogan and his entourage today. They are attacking the leftist forces that threw the American soldier into the sea. Now the AKP-MHP government is exploiting the Palestinian issue. I am not talking about Islamic circles outside of it, but Erdogan and the MHP are exploiting the struggle of the Palestinian people. They are trying to use the Palestinian struggle to cover up the Kurdish genocide and make people realize it more easily. Erdogan is not defending Palestine. He didn’t quit the trade immediately. He waited seven to eight months until he limited it. When a deputy from the Saadet Party was confronting them with this in parliament, AKP members attacked him; he fell and died of a heart attack. They still haven’t quit trading.

Mahmoud Abbas should not have made himself a tool of a fascist power like the AKP-MHP. Supposedly, it was in retaliation for Netanyahu’s speech in the US. This is not how it works. The Palestinians cannot sympathize with a government that commits genocide against the Kurds. They cannot legitimize and normalize it. We want to emphasize this one more time. Turkey has historically had the best relations with Israel. Turkey was the first to recognize Israel in the Middle East. In fact, they wanted to improve it even before the October 7 incident. Why? They were saying that if they improve their relations with Israel, they will get the support of Europe and the US on the Kurdish genocide. They have always had good relations with Israel in order to get the support of the US and Europe for the Kurdish genocide. Right now, it is just to keep its own power alive because it is very squeezed. The Saadet Party, Yeniden Refah, and the democratic force were confronting them, so they were finally forced to cut down their trade to a certain point. They started to act anti-israelian to keep their own power alive.

The Palestinian people and the Palestinian political forces should not be a tool for such a genocidal state and power. They can address the people of Turkey. They can be in contact with the people of Turkey and the political forces in Turkey. But they should not become a cover for this policy of such a government. I call on Palestinians to be sensitive on this issue.