President of the Swiss Ticino Cantonal Parliament, Swiss Section of International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War (IPPNW) and a member of the International Committee for Freedom for Abdullah Öcalan, Dr. Beppe Savary-Boriloli talked to Serkan Demirel on the European Agenda program broadcast on Medya Haber.

Abdullah Öcalan has been a prisoner for 24 years. There has been no contact with him for the past 27 months. The right to a lawyer and family visit has been violated. How do you evaluate this regime of absolute isolation?

The practices against Abdullah Öcalan are completely inhumane and contrary to all legal procedures. These practices also go against anything that makes sense. We spoke with Mr. Dick Marty, a former Swiss Federal Prosecutor and human rights defender at the Council of Europe, about the isolation imposed upon Abdullah Öcalan. We both agree that Abdullah Öcalan's detention conditions are completely inhuman and illegal.

Talking about the treatment of Abdullah Öcalan has become impossible in Turkey. A journalist who drew attention to these practices was recently arrested. What do you think about the Turkish state’s handling of the situation? And its fear of Abdullah Öcalan?

Abdullah Öcalan is somehow in Nelson Mandela's position. In my opinion, the conditions in Imrali are much more difficult and harsher than the prison on Robben Island in South Africa, where Mandela was held. We know very well that the solution to the problem in South Africa started with Mandela's freedom. At the head of South Africa, when Mandela was freed, was Prime Minister FW de Clerk, who was much more progressive than Erdogan. To be frank, what makes me a bit more hopeful about Mr. Öcalan's situation is that Mr. Dick Marty, who has very good contacts with the Council of Europe, told me that the Council of Europe is monitoring Abdullah Öcalan's situation. I think that the Council of Europe did not openly say that due to diplomatic relations.

But, as you said, the absence of any vital signs from Mr. Öcalan for 27 months and the fact that no communication was allowed with him personally worries me a lot.

Despite these practices against Abdullah Öcalan and the demand of the Kurdish people, the international community and the relevant authorities are silent. So, how should we evaluate this situation?

I think that Erdoğan is blackmailing everyone on this issue. Just like the blackmail he made over Finland and Sweden, which recently wanted to join NATO. Erdogan is the commander-in-chief of NATO's second largest and most important army. He is blackmailing European countries, especially by using the situation of Syrian refugees. He takes action by saying, ‘I'll open the border to refugees. You'll see what happens.’

Moreover, although most Turkish arms production now takes place in Turkey, I think Erdogan is a good client for some European industries. But Erdogan uses blackmail as a strategy. The European states could give much better advice to Turkey, which hopes to join the European Union. But they don't. Germany, where a large Turkish community lives, is definitely a country that has had the most contact and influence over Turkey and Erdoğan. Despite this, it seems to me that Germany does almost nothing against Erdoğan. The German Foreign Minister should take tougher steps against Erdoğan.

Can we say that Europe has a responsibility in what is happening?

Certainly, Europe has a responsibility in this situation. But the US are also responsible for what happened. The US follows a hypocritical policy. They supported the Kurds in their fight against ISIS. Kurds fought against ISIS at great cost and won. The victory against ISIS was won not by air bombs, but by the Kurds. Yet, after the Kurds won, they were left alone.

Turkey also continues to wage war against Rojava and the PKK. We also know that it used chemical weapons against the PKK in this war. You went to the region to investigate this chemical weapons use, and you also published a report on the subject. Can you talk a little bit about this process?

At the request of the German section of International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War (IPPNW), Chemical Weapons Specialist, together with Jan van Aken, we went to Sulaymaniyah and even to the Turkish border. But the district governor of Amiye did not want to allow us to go to the region on the orders of the Turkish authorities, claiming that he could not guarantee our security. Frankly, he prevented us from going to the area where chemical weapons were allegedly used, and from doing research and meeting with the people we were in contact with.

I know that Erdoğan was not at all pleased with our report on the subject because he described us as ‘so-called’ doctors. I can assure Erdoğan that I am a real doctor, not a so-called one. Therefore, Erdogan's disdain for me only pleases me, because it unwittingly reinforced our concerns about the issues we raised in our report.

In a sense, we were not allowed to find conclusive evidence of chemical use. In order to obtain evidence, the United Nations, or the UN Secretary-General, can send a delegation to investigate the region. Institutions such as the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) should step in. There must be a country requesting this investigation for the OPCW to act as well. Unfortunately, we have not been able to find this country so far. Neither Switzerland nor Germany, with whom we are in contact, do not want to do this. This confirms our opinion that everyone is a little afraid of Erdoğan's Turkey.

As you know, Europe still keeps the PKK on its 'terrorist' list. What are your thoughts on this issue?

This is an old issue with no answer. It is a very old issue in that Helmut Kohl, the German Chancellor of the time, put the PKK on the 'terror list' to please Turkey. Trump also placed Cuba on the list of countries promoting terrorism. But we do not know what kind of terrorism he is talking about. Cuba has never killed a single American. This is a political issue. As to Helmut Kohl, we do not know on what he bases his decision to include the PKK on the terrorist list. The PKK has always rejected terrorist methods such as endangering innocent civilians and attacking civilians.

So, how do you see and evaluate the struggle of the PKK?

In my opinion, the armed struggle of the PKK is very important. Without the unarmed struggle, the Kurdish question would have been forgotten. In other words, there is a political and diplomatic struggle on the one hand, but there is also a very important armed struggle on the other. Although the Turkish army has tremendous resources and technological power, it has not been able to defeat the Kurdish resistance in both South and North Kurdistan.

In addition, the United Nations drew attention to the war crimes by Turkey and its forces against the Kurds in Syria in their previous reports. Despite all this, the silence of international institutions continues. What do you think can be done to break this silence?

We need a judge to expose these crimes and prosecute those responsible. Nothing will happen if we can only condemn Erdogan but no one takes him to the International Criminal Court in The Hague. Saddam Hussein and his cousin Ali, nicknamed "Chemical Ali", got what they deserved because they were defeated. But for now, Erdoğan is re-elected and plays with the US and some European countries. Therefore, at the moment, I cannot see anyone who can prosecute Erdoğan for his crimes.

I think the most important thing we can do for now is to keep bringing the Kurdish issue on the agenda. Now everyone is talking about the war in Ukraine. I think this war is starting to lose its relevance too. While Erdoğan is playing the role of a mediator in this war, on the other hand, he wants to realize his dirty plans.

Do you want to add anything?

I would like to say that Erdoğan was trying to celebrate a victory against the Kurdish people, but he was unsuccessful. He took control of all media and communication tools during the election campaign. It was very difficult to hear other voices in this process. Despite all this, he received only slightly more than 50 percent of the votes. Therefore, there is a large segment in Turkey that is dissatisfied with Erdogan's policies, even though they are now in the minority.

From this point of view, I think that the pressure to be put against Erdoğan in the international arena, especially in European countries, is very important. Erdoğan wants to join the European Union, so European countries can put pressure on him to at least respect basic human rights.

We, too, must never stop the pressure we exert against Turkey in the international arena. In this context, actions will be held in the coming days on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the Treaty of Lausanne, which caused the division of Kurdistan into four parts. And I will be there and raise my voice against this treaty.