In the second part of this in-depth interview, Mustafa Karasu, KCK Executive Council member, spoke about the Turkish state's attacks against the guerrillas in South Kurdistan, the role of the KDP as well as the Kobane Trial.

The first part of the interview can be read here.

The fascist Turkish state’s invasion attacks against the Medya Defense Areas, where the guerrillas are waging a historic resistance, continue to increase. The KDP, on the other hand, provides all kinds of support to the fascist Turkish state in order to relieve the difficult situation the Turkish state is in. In this sense, how should the guerrilla resistance be embraced and what kind of attitude should be taken against the fascist Turkish state and especially the KDP?

The Turkish state has been attacking the Medya Defense Areas for decades. In the last three years, it has increasingly sustained these attacks. These attacks are part of an operation for complete occupation. The Turkish state will not leave any of the places it has entered by itself again. When it finds the opportunity, it will occupy the whole of southern Kurdistan. Its strong interest in Kirkuk and organizing there should be seen as part of this invasion operation. It has established a base in Bashiqa, and even though Iraq says this base must be left, the Turkish state has not left. The Turkish state emphasizes at every opportunity that Mosul and Kirkuk provinces are within the Misak-ı Milli and belong to them. At the time of the declaration of the National Pact, there was no policy of denial, assimilation, or genocide of the Kurds. There was talk of Kurdish self-government in Kurdistan. Today, the Kurds are being subjected to physical and cultural genocide, and Kurdistan is being turned into an expansion area for Turkish nationalization. The KDP is cooperating with such an anti-Kurdish and genocidal state. It is now a partner in the genocide of Kurds.

At the moment, their attacks are spreading even further. But there is historical resistance against this, especially since the fall of 2023. The Turkish army is being dealt heavy blows, and they are forced to constantly withdraw their soldiers who have become unable to fight and bring in new troops instead. Since it cannot achieve results in this way, it is trying to involve the KDP more actively in the war. As a matter of fact, the KDP is establishing outposts in areas close to Turkish troops, protecting and providing logistics for these troops. On behalf of the Iraqi border troops, most of whom are members of the KDP, the KDP is increasing the siege around the guerrillas. The main purpose of the Turkish visits to Baghdad and Hewler was to liquidate the guerrillas. The Turkish state wants to use the ‘Development Road Project’ as a tool to drag the Iraqi state into it.

In order to liquidate the guerrillas and the freedom struggle as a whole, they want to turn the PUK into a complicit as well. Just as the KDP legitimizes the attacks of the Turkish state in Rojava, Shengal (Sinjar), Makhmour, and the Medya Defense Zones, it is now trying to legitimize the attacks of the Turkish state on the PUK. The KDP is even insisting that the Turkish state increase pressure on the PUK and is therefore promising to fight more actively against the PKK if the Turkish state manages to drag the PUK to war. When the PUK objected to those attempts, the KDP said, “I cannot use my full power in the war against the PKK.” As if their own betrayal was not enough, they wanted the PUK to join their policy of betrayal. In this way, they aim to cover up their own guilt. The KDP goes as far as to portray the war against the PKK as a war between all southern parties and political forces. The KDP is this deep in betrayal. Though, we must say that the attitude and struggle against this stance of the KDP is insufficient. This issue is closely related to the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. Taking a stance against the KDP’s betrayal is very important in terms of carrying out the struggle for freedom and democracy of the four parts of Kurdistan with the right principles. It is also necessary to take a stance against the KDP to protect the guerrillas, which is the biggest and most sacrificial force in the history of Kurdistan and has played a historical role in bringing the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom and democracy to a very important level in every part of Kurdistan. It is a patriotic duty to take a stance against the KDP, which openly sides with the Turkish state. A high level of patriotism is crucial for the success of a people’s struggle against a colonialist and genocidal power. In this respect, it is very important to take a stance against the KDP. It is not possible that it commits so much collaboration and betrayal, and no stance is taken against it. This situation lowers the measures of patriotism and makes them vague. It creates great danger and harm for the struggle of the Kurdish people.

Someone who recently appeared on Medya Haber TV in northern Kurdistan said, “Don’t call the KDP traitors, society does not want them to be called traitors.” We know well that people in northern Kurdistan call the KDP traitors. What else would people name a party that works with the enemy to kill their children? The Turkish state wants a genocide against all Kurds. It does not accept the status in the south either. Everyone knows that the Turkish state has said that they “will not make the same mistake in Rojava as [they] did in the south.” In other words, when they find the opportunity, they will take action to abolish the status in the south too.

The KDP is supporting the Turkish state in its attempts to liquidate the PKK. It besieges guerrilla areas, ambushes guerrillas, and blocks roads to prevent reinforcements, logistics, and ammunition from being sent to guerrilla areas. It legitimizes the Turkish state’s attack on the Medya Defense Zones. The Turkish army has established dozens of bases in southern Kurdistan. The Turkish Intelligence Service (MIT) is roaming in southern Kurdistan, targeting PUK areas. It legitimizes the occupations in Rojava; the KDP-affiliated formation called ENKS cooperates with the occupation forces and gangs. In Shengal, it both encourages the attacks of the Turkish state and has the Turkish state assassinate Êzidî [Yazidi] commanders and members of their administrations with the intelligence it provides. It provides intelligence in relation to patriots in Makhmour as well and enables the Turkish state, in this way, to murder those people. The KDP, which has relations and partnerships at all levels with the fascist AKP-MHP government and implements the policies of Kurdish enmity and genocide in the most reckless manner, should be called a traitor.

If the KDP, which is in relations with the genocidal Turkish to such an extent, is not called a traitor, then the measures of patriotism have fallen to their absolute minimum. This is the biggest danger for Kurds. Lowering the measures of patriotism is the greatest harm to the Kurdish freedom struggle and the society that is facing genocide. In this respect, instead of questioning why the KDP is being called a traitor, those who do not need to be questioned and criticized. The inadequate attitude towards the KDP needs to be criticized. Inadequate attitudes towards the KDP pave the way for continued betrayal.

The fascist AKP-MHP continues its attacks not only militarily but also politically, in order to complete the Kurdish genocide. Politicians were given heavy sentences in the so-called ‘Kobane Trials’. The reasons and consequences of these trials and the sentences given, continue to be discussed. What kind of goal is being pursued with these sentences given to politicians?

The Kobane Trial is a conspiracy case, as members of the HDP have stated. The fact that this trial was initiated four years after the Kobane protests is clear evidence that this trial is a political conspiracy. The trial was carried out according to the instructions of the AKP-MHP government; it continued for seven years and sentences were handed down according to the instructions of those who plotted this trial. It is said by everyone, except the AKP-MHP government, that the judiciary is under the command of the political power.

One of the most fundamental pillars of the genocide policy against Kurds is political genocide. The executions of Sheikh Sayit and his friends, as well as the executions of Seyit Riza and his friends, were part of this political genocide. The arrest of the 49’ers was also part of it. As well as the imprisonment of thousands of revolutionaries and patriotic people, especially in Amed in the 1980s. The international conspiracy against Rêber Apo and him being kept in heavy isolation for 26 years is also political genocide. Today, tens of thousands of revolutionaries, patriots, democrats, and politicians being sentenced for tens of years is also political genocide. The genocidal colonialist Turkish state wants to complete its genocide policy against the Kurds on the basis of these dimensions of political genocide. In Turkey, the constitution and laws are aimed at genocide, and in cases where the constitution and laws are not legally permissible, the constitution and laws are set aside, and political genocide is practiced. The sentences given in the Kobane Conspiracy Trial are such.

The aim of political genocide policies and practices is to discourage the struggle for freedom and democracy. It is aimed at liberalizing and pacifying the thoughts of political prisoners by keeping them in prisons for years and “rehabilitating” them. They aim to push these prisoners to internalize the state in thought and action. By keeping people in prisons, the state aims to keep society unorganized and leaderless.

In the Kobane Trials, the HDP co-chairs Figen Yuksekdag and Selahattin Demirtas were given maximum sentences. In this way, the state is trying to dissuade people from becoming co-chairs and, generally, from taking responsibility within democratic parties. This is how they respond to the insistence of the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. They are also trying to dissuade the Turkish socialists and democratic forces with these brutal prison sentences, saying that if these circles affiliate with the Kurds, they will be burned in the same way. Thus, it has been seen once again that the state fears the joint struggle of the democratic forces of the Kurdish people and the democratic forces of Turkey.

According to the mentality of the Turkish state, doing politics with the Kurds constitutes a crime. Since the existence of the Kurds is not recognized and genocide is the goal, the struggle against this policy is seen as the biggest crime. Let me emphasize one point: Turkey has a one-article constitution. This is to genocide the Kurds. The laws are also organized accordingly. When they cannot achieve this de jure, they try to achieve it de facto. Then, through extensions such as courts of appeal, the Supreme Court, and the Constitutional Court, these sentences are normalized as if they were given according to the rule of law. In this way, people who have not even been sentenced according to the Constitution and laws are kept in prisons for years.

In short, the aim of those prison sentences is to intimidate politicians and deprive society of its political leaders. Thus, society is also threatened.

Around the elections and before the Kobane Trials there were discourses about a potential ‘softening-normalization’ process. Looking at the sentences handed down in the Kobane Trials, what remains of this ‘softening-normalization’ process?

Before the elections, a perception operation was carried out against the Kurds as if there would be a normalization process after April 1. The palace-centered special warfare institutes and the MIT tried to create this perception. Some influential spheres within the KDP also tried to spread these perceptions in order for the AKP to get some Kurdish votes in the elections. Some people within and around Kurdish democratic politics have also expressed, in good faith, an expectation that they would like to see this happen. Of course there are reasons for this. The Kurdish people and the democratic political arena have been under heavy pressure for many years. Despite their electing co-mayors of municipalities in elections, the state appoints trustees. In this respect, they naively wish for an environment where there will be no oppression. They are approaching according to their intentions and aspirations, not according to the real situation. We understand such expectations and desires. Making evaluations and comments without understanding the underlying realities does not lead to the achievement of aspirations; on the contrary, it pushes them further away. Against the perception-building efforts surrounding a normalization process, we say that whether AKP wins or loses, it will not change its policy against the Kurds and the forces of democracy. Of course, if it had won, it would have implemented its repressive policies more harshly than before. It is trying to do so now, but now the AKP-MHP government has weakened. Therefore, it will experience some setbacks in implementation. Since their fundamental mindset and policy has not changed, the AKP-MHP will try to achieve the same goal through different ways and methods. This will be in the underlying reason for any normalization process: to neutralize the Kurdish people’s freedom struggle and democracy forces, thus completing the genocide policy.

Processes of softening and normalization require a change of policy. Neither the AKP nor the AKP-MHP alliance has a policy change. The rhetoric of softening and normalization without a policy change, means nothing more than covering up old policies. If there is to be normalization, the use of the judiciary as a political tool must be overcome. On the contrary, it seems that this will continue, let alone be overcome. Some detainees are being released in order to add legitimacy to the politicized judiciary. Still, we have seen that the judiciary will continue to be used as a political tool with the preparation of an indictment covering up the murder of Sinan Ateş and the verdicts in the Kobane Trial. The arrest of dozens of May 1 protesters is clear evidence that the pressure on the forces of democracy will continue.

Why has the judiciary in Turkey become a political apparatus of the government? Why has it created so much polarization? Why has it established an unprecedented system of repression? Why does it want to reinforce this repressive order with new laws? Without answering these questions, any talk of softening and normalization is nothing more than deceiving the public. The judiciary has been politicized to such an extent in order to suppress and liquidate the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom and the forces of democracy. A repressive order has been established at this level, and the ‘others’ have been marginalized, and polarization has been created like never before in Turkey’s history. In order to suppress the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom more easily and to implement the genocide policy, unprecedented pressure has been put on the democratic forces. So much so that even the CHP was declared a traitor when it made some democratic statements. Because it is thought that every democratic discourse weakens the genocide policy against the Kurds. In this respect, the discourse of softening and normalizing without a change in policy towards the Kurds is nothing but a deception.

The Kurds and democratic forces say that the source of the oppression in Turkey is the policy of isolation and oppression in Imrali. Without a change in Kurdish policy starting with Imrali, it would be a fantasy to expect the political environment in Turkey to soften. Devlet Bahceli said that “no one should expect a softening after the Kobane Trial.” He said that the sentences handed down in the trials were political. He openly expressed that a normalization process will only be initiated if the policy of the MHP is adopted. With his statements, Devlet Bahceli gave Ozgur Ozel the following message: “If you are Kurdish-hostile, you will be accepted; otherwise, our pre-election discourse and approaches towards the CHP will continue.” Ozgur Ozel could have told Devlet Bahceli that the Kobane Trials are, of course, political. But by responding only to the Sinan Ates case, Ozgur Ozel glossed over the fact that the judiciary is under the command of politics.

The AKP-MHP government is based on Kurdish enmity. This is why the MHP has taken part in this alliance, and that also signals that this will continue. Still, they want to create the perception that a process of normalization is possible. It is not. To assume that this is possible, one must be blind to the politicization of the judiciary, the repression, and the polarization. These are no different from the policy of attack against the Kurds. People ought not to bury their heads in the sand.

In fact, the CHP has fallen into Tayyip Erdoğan’s trap. The AKP-MHP will continue its old policies, and when the CHP and its chairman fight against this policy, Erdogan will blame them for opposing the strategy of softening and normalization. The other alternative is that the CHP will not oppose or fight against the AKP-MHP government’s policies on fundamental issues. The new leader of the CHP would be softened and would no longer be an obstacle to the AKP-MHP government. Thus, while the public voted for the CHP against the AKP-MHP alliance, the CHP will be in a situation contrary to the will of the people.

Debates regarding Turkey’s constitution are being held in an environment of brutal attacks against Kurds. There is now an attempt to introduce the practice of ‘influence agency’ through the judiciary. How do you evaluate these discussions and the ‘influence agency’ practice?

With the argument that they are opposing the constitution developed by the coup d’état and want to formulate a civilian constitution, the AKP aims to make a constitution that is even more fascist than its current state, aiming solely to legalize the Kurdish genocide. They will want to make a constitution that normalizes and legitimizes the Kurdish genocide and the suppression of the Kurdish people’s struggle for freedom. They will accuse their opponents of defending the coup constitution if they disagree. The agenda for a new constitution is an agenda to divert society. How could it be expected that the AKP, whose main alliance is the MHP, would form a civilian and democratic constitution? Surely, those who long for a new constitution the most are the MHP and Devlet Bahceli. It is clear that the IYI Party and the Grand Union Party will also be on this front. A so-called civilian constitution can be made with these parties, but this constitution will not be democratic; in fact, it will make the old constitution look better. In fact, there are almost no unchanged articles in this constitution except for the preamble and other articles directly related to the Kurdish genocide. There used to be articles like 168 and 171 in the penal code. By replacing them with the ‘Anti-Terror Law’, they made those old laws favorable. They paved the way to legitimize throwing everyone into prison.

With the ‘influence agency’, they want to enact an openly fascist law that would rival all fascist penal code articles, even the anti-terrorism law. Which democratic civilian constitution can those who are considering such a law come up with? Anyway, when they say civil constitution, they do not mean a democratic constitution. There cannot be a law as subjective as the ‘influence agency’ law. Criminal laws look for concrete evidence, but the ‘influence agency’ law requires no concrete evidence. Judges will decide whether a person is an agent of influence or not. With this law, anyone who criticizes the policies of the government will be easily labeled as an influence agent. The new argument used to increase polarization, marginalization, and declaring enemies will be ‘influence agency’. With this law, all Kurds will be accused of spying for the PKK. The Kurds’ demands for freedom and democracy and all their actions will be evaluated in this way. Some circles are claiming that the talks of democracy, freedom, Kurds, and Kurdistan are the doing of foreign powers who want to divide Turkey. Therefore, all who make such demands are the spies of foreign states. Those who talk about democracy and democratization will be accused of spying with the argument that they are opening space for Kurds and separatism. In short, not only Kurds but all democratic forces opposed to the government will be punished as spies. Even this law proves that the AKP-MHP government has no intention of abandoning its current policies. There will be neither normalization nor a constitution with this government. There is nothing good to be done with this government. This government is a government of evil. These evils can only be overcome by overthrowing this government.

Undoubtedly, the Kurds and the democratic forces want this constitution to change. However, making a democratic constitution requires a democratic mentality and a democratic environment. There is no such environment. Kurds and democratic forces have been demanding a new constitution for 40 years; they were the ones who opposed the 1982 constitution from the beginning. Now, the AKP-MHP government wants to make a constitution that does not accept the existence, identity, culture, and mother tongue education of Kurds. With a new constitution, the current government wants to deny the existence of the Kurds even more. On this basis, the Kurds and democratic forces can put forward their own constitutional understanding and expose the AKP-MHP government’s constitutional understanding and the reasons why the government is putting forward such an agenda. Otherwise, getting caught up in the AKP’s constitutional agenda would be to loosen the struggle and feed society with false expectations.

What attitude should the Kurdish people, the democratic forces and, of course, the opposition forces within the system take in such a process where the struggle is tried to be loosened with ‘soft special war’ methods?

If the democratic forces of the Kurdish people and Turkey do not establish a broad alliance of democratic struggle, the opposition forces within the system cannot do much against AKP-MHP fascism. The AKP-MHP fascist power has been weakened. The people have rejected the policies of this government. First and foremost, it has rejected the MHP mentality that determines the policies of this government. Now, the AKP government is politically hostage to the MHP. This eight-year alliance has turned the AKP into the MHP. There is no longer any difference between both parties. The vast majority of former AKP members have already left the AKP. Now there is an AKP made up of those who defend classical state policy and those who are with the AKP only for self-interest. With this character, the AKP has become very weak. In this respect, the possibility of a successful struggle against the AKP-MHP government has increased. The results of the municipal elections have prepared the ground for this. In this respect, the laxity of the intra-system opposition forces and their lack of determination to fight against the AKP-MHP government impose a historic task on the radical democratic forces. The current environment requires radical opposition forces to play the role of real opposition to the AKP-MHP government. If the democratic forces of the Kurdish people and Turkey strengthen their alliance and engage in an active struggle against the AKP-MHP government, then the opposition forces within the system can also show the strength to fight the current government.

At the moment, the CHP’s attitude towards the AKP-MHP government is being criticized. However, the radical democratic forces, including the DEM Party, should be criticized even more. Unless the broadest forces of democracy are brought together against fascist governments, no effective and fruitful struggle can be waged. It is irresponsible that they do not create a strong alliance against AKP-MHP fascism. Is democratization then expected from the CHP or, as some think, from the AKP? No ideological difference, no political difference of opinion can be an excuse for not forming such an alliance. The inability of the left in Turkey to make a move in the midst of such a crisis is due to its narrow and self-limited understanding of organization and struggle. The Kurdish democratic forces and their alliance, which have the strong social support needed for democracy and freedom, are most responsible for creating such an alliance and the struggle for democracy. Kurdish democratic forces should reconsider the HDP’s ideology and understanding of alliances at the time of its foundation. This idea is what is needed today. The fact that the AKP government and its Kurdish collaborators attack the idea and politics of the HDP the most is due to the fact that the idea of the HDP is the real alternative to the current government. The ‘third way,’ which was brought to the agenda with the idea behind the HDP, is also the way to form the broadest democratic alliance. Those who oppose the alliance policy are those who oppose the third way. The third way does not mean not engaging in political tactics. On the contrary, there is a need for the Kurdish people and democratic forces. The Kurdish people and the democratic forces of the peoples of Turkey need to build an alliance of democracy with the widest spectrum. Undoubtedly, the HDP is a party with many components and many common denominators. At the same time, they can form alliances with other forces, parties, and movements. What is desirable is to create parties and political movements with as many or even more components than the HDP. But there can also be alliances where different political forces come together. Such alliances are most welcome because they are able to lift greater responsibility towards the people.

Undoubtedly, those who form such alliances and fight against the AKP-MHP constantly remind that the opposition forces within the system, for which the people vote, must also oppose and fight against the policies of the AKP-MHP government in line with the will of the people. Those who voted for the forces within the system did not vote for reconciliation with the AKP-MHP government and a soft struggle against their unaccepted policies. They voted for the CHP against the AKP-MHP and made it the first party because the CHP talked about democratization. Then they should fight against this undemocratic government. If they don’t do this, the support of the people will decrease. The AKP-MHP is waging a special war on the CHP to ensure that the support of the people decreases. Knowing this reality, the forces that will actually develop the struggle for democratization must organize themselves and develop the struggle.