Mustafa Karasu, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the recent conference on the Kurdish Question in the European Parliament as well as the struggle for democracy in Turkey.

The first part of the interview can be read here

The second part of the interview can be read here

Recently there has been a conference on the Kurdish Question in the European Parliament. Have you been able follow it?

Indeed, an important Kurdish conference took place in the European Parliament. We also saw the following at this conference. The discussions at this conference are increasingly centered on the paradigm of Rêber Apo. The democratic nation was discussed, women were discussed and the equality and freedom of peoples were discussed. Most of these are ideas guided by Rêber Apo’s paradigm. This also meant the following. Because the paradigm of Rêber Apo is very correct, because it responds to the need, I watched a conference where people spoke more easily on these issues, made evaluations more easily, made holistic evaluations and made evaluations with enthusiasm and conviction. It was important in this respect. Of course, important evaluations were made on the Kurdish problem. There were also discussions on solving the problems on the basis of the democratic nation, and there were discussions on women’s freedom. Yes, indeed, the slogan “Jin, Jiyan, Azadî”, its philosophy, also left an important mark on that conference. Now, when we talk about Kurds, Rêber Apo comes to mind. When we talk about the Kurds, Kurdish thought, the Kurdish view of the world, the Kurdish view of events, we think of Rêber Apo. Because there is no Kurdish thought anymore except the view and thoughts of Rêber Apo. There was a classical, primitive, nationalist thought. That is now left behind. It has no meaning anymore. It is of no use to the Kurds. In this respect, the thought that gives honor to the Kurds is the thought of Rêber Apo. That is why Kurds are confident now. Kurds are the ones who speak with confidence in front of the world. They see themselves as such: they can say that we have a stronger thought than other people, peoples and communities. They speak with such confidence. They need to know how they speak this way. It is the thoughts of Rêber Apo that have given the Kurds this self-confidence, that have made the Kurds so honorable and proud among humanity. It has left its mark on the conference. In this respect, I congratulate and salute the organizers of the conference.

Of course, there were also some incomplete approaches. In other words, there were some people who did not understand Rêber Apo’s paradigm correctly, or more precisely, there are some patterns of the mentality of capitalist modernity, people who could not overcome those patterns, who could not overcome that paradigm, and therefore, when evaluating, eclectic evaluations were made. Someone stood up and said we are against the state, we are against the nation state, but we are not against nationalism, for example. This is really the classical paradigm of the 19th-20th century. At that time, there was such an approach in the national liberation movement. That the nationalism of the oppressed nation is innocent. There is no need to call it nationalism. There is patriotism. There is commitment to values. Nationalism is an ideology. It is an ideology that considers its own nation superior and despises others. Where has there been peace where there is nationalism? A person who is a nationalist cannot think clearly, cannot make healthy evaluations. He molds events and facts to himself. You will not do this. In other words, you will put forward what is right. Of course we will defend the rights of the Kurd, but we will defend the rights of everyone. The ideology of nationalism leads to the nation state. Or the nation state stands up, takes shape and exists with the ideology of nationalism. We really need to pay attention to these things. When you think in the paradigm of women’s freedom, ecological freedom and democratic approach that will create the new world, you think in a holistic and correct way and you don’t live in the old paradigm.

But I can say that there were not many such speeches. There were one or two small statements. But in general, to summarize, this is really important. When evaluating on the women’s freedom, one gets excited and enthusiastic. We are uplifted by the fact that Rêber Apo revealed these thoughts of ours. A Kurdish People’s Leader came up with these ideas and now women are embracing him them. When we see this, of course we feel uplifted.

To throw again an eye on the policies within Turkey; recently the Turkish state is opposing even more pressure on democratic institutions like the Turkish Medical Association. How do you evaluate these developments?

The Turkish state is waging an unjust, dirty and inhuman war. It is waging an ugly, evil war like no other state in the world. In fact, the AKP and MHP government is a government of evil. Now they are trying to suppress even the smallest voice to prevent this from being exposed. They say no one should speak. Because if somebody may speak, all of their shame will be exposed. That inhuman face, that genocidal face, that massacring face will be exposed. What have they made the Saturday Mothers go through for years? Why? They are afraid that the mask will fall off. Let them be afraid. They are trying to scare everyone and openly threatening that they will do same that they did to the Saturday mothers, with everyone that dares to stand up.

And now there is the topic of the Turkish Medical Association [TBB]. Why? Because Şebnem Korur Fincancı is saying “may there be ‘investigations’. This is what she said. There is are allegations, so let it be investigated. An intellectual, a doctor… Now they have targeted the TBB because of this. They once targeted bar associations. They want to eliminate everything that will block the AKP-MHP fascist government in Turkey and prevent its policies. We have repeated it before, but let me emphasize it again. The reason for these attacks is this: They say that if there is the slightest democratic opportunity, if there is an opportunity, the Kurds will benefit from it. Because they say Kurds will benefit, they are hostile to and prevent the smallest step towards democracy. They say that if such a tradition is established, the Kurds will benefit tomorrow. They say this openly. They don’t say this for those in the mountains. They say it for HDP. They are practicing democratic politics. They say it for other democratic forces. In this way they want to strangle democracy. Because who can benefit from democracy? Kurds can benefit. That is why.

Every day they say Israel is doing this, Israel is doing that. Yes, they do. The Turkish state is doing it at least as much as Israel. The Turkish state has been doing it for decades. With the bombs of the Turkish state, not one Gaza but ten Gaza would have been destroyed. This is the truth. In order to prevent this fact from being exposed, to prevent it from being exposed, the Turkish Medical Association is being shut down.

In this respect, the struggle for democracy needs to be sharpened further. It must be waged together with the Kurdish people. There cannot be a struggle for democracy without opposing the genocidal war against the Kurdish people. Democracy is prevented in Turkey because they say Kurds will benefit from democratization. Yes, Kurds will benefit from democracy. Will the Kurds be massacred, will there no longer be such a people, will there be democracy then? Will we be democrats then? Then we will struggle for democracy. So this reality needs to be seen by everyone. In this respect, the reason for the closure of the TBB is part of the Kurdish question. Some people are discussing it in a meaningless way. Let’s not call it the Kurdish question, what will we call it? The nature problem, for example. When you say the nature problem, does nature create problems? This is how it is used for everyone to understand. As long as the Kurdish problem is not solved, as long as the Kurds gain their freedom, such practices will continue. This issue of the closure of the TBB once again reveals this reality.

Right now it is not just the Kurdish people and democratic institutions in Turkey that are struggling for a democratization of Turkey, there are also for example the Alevis that got more active lately.

Alevis plan to organize a rally for Democratic Turkey and Equal Citizenship. This is an important rally. Alevis are the second largest community in Turkey, after Kurds, who have not gained their freedom and democratic rights. In fact, the Alevi population may be as large as the Kurdish population, and there are some who say it is even larger. Because there are Turkish Alevis everywhere. Now, of course, there is nothing as natural as such a large community demanding its own rights and freedom of belief. But just as the Turkish state is locked in a genocide of Kurds, it is also locked in a genocide of Alevis’ beliefs. Genocide of belief means genocide of culture at the same time. Because beliefs also shape culture. In this respect, Alevis, like Kurds, are facing genocide collectively. They are facing religious genocide. They are facing cultural genocide. And this threat has increased. This threat is greater than it was a hundred years ago.

That belief is wanted to be completely separated from its essence and assimilated. It is facing such a situation. Today Cevdet Yılmaz said that they have given Alevis a presidency in the Ministry of Culture. What presidency, recognize the existence of people, recognize their own worship. Remove the obstacles in front of their worship. Don’t try to define their beliefs for them. No, he says, “I will change Alevis to suit me, I will make them suit me”. The Turkish-Islamic synthesis wants to destroy the Kurds, on the other hand, it wants to melt everyone into the pot of Sunni Islam.

Of course there is a reaction from Alevis against this. Alevis do not want to be slaughtered for their beliefs. Alevis have the consciousness to see this. Because Alevis do not learn what they are from Erdoğan. They learned from their fathers and grandfathers. They know what they are. And now the AKP is trying to make Alevis part of the state. Alevis are a democratic society that has remained outside the state throughout history. In essence, they are a democratic community. Non-state communities live with democratic values. In other words, state communities are not naturally democratic. We need to define it like this. In non-state communities there is no such power, oppression and tyranny. They have come to this day with their own values, democratic values. Alevis are such a community. Now this community is actually close to democracy. As such, of course they oppose the authoritarian system, the fascist system. The reason why Alevis are in opposition is the oppressive, undemocratic character of the Turkish state. They oppose it. They also opposed it during the Ottoman period. They were always in rebellion, they did not accept the state as it was. Now they want to be melted down. There is an attitude against this. There is a significant level of correct approach, but there are still those who have expectations from the state. When we talk about Alevis, we are talking about tens of millions of people. They can build their own cemevis and provide their own worship facilities. How did the pirs and grandfathers live in the past? There is apprenticeship wherever they go. Whatever their talents, whatever their means are, the poor also give. Those pirs continued their lives. It can continue to exist. Expecting the state to do so is like this. Now Sunni Islam is criticized, it is said to be like this and that. Why did it merge with the state? The state has taken it over. In other words, it has become the state religion. So should Alevis be like that now? They don’t want that. Since the majority of them don’t want it, they should take a more principled stance against it. This is not Alevism. It is the end of Alevism, it is a betrayal of Alevism. If he is a pir, his talibs meet his needs. In other words, they enable him to serve. This is the truth. Of course they want equal citizenship, that is true. Therefore, the way for Alevis to gain equal citizenship is democratization in addition to gaining freedom of belief. It is the struggle for democracy. Alevis cannot gain freedom of belief without democratizing Turkey and fighting for democracy. Their beliefs will be tampered with and they will be assimilated. In this respect, today they need to see the struggle for democracy as their true worship. Then they will worship correctly, they will practice their beliefs correctly, they will practice their beliefs in the true sense. In this respect, whoever is fighting for democracy in Turkey should be allied with them. Whoever is in favor of democracy in Turkey is a friend of Alevis. That is how they should see friendship. The answer to the question of who is a friend to Alevis is clear. Whoever is in favor of democracy is a friend. Whoever is fighting for democracy is a friend. They need to approach with such an approach.

In this respect, of course, the March for Equal Citizenship and Democratic Turkey is being organized. There is an important motivation and reaction. I would like to emphasize one point here. It is necessary to fight jointly with all Alevi segments, except those who are in very close relations with the state and target the state. There may be various different views. Whatever is right will be reached in time. Because Alevis are discussing their history and many things. But this is clear. What Alevism is is not a debatable issue. It is what everyone has seen from their grandparents. There is no such thing as someone else creating a new Alevism.

But of course the world is changing, society is changing. It can change without changing its essence, but its essence must not change, that is, its democratic side, its socialist side, its side in favor of equality and justice must not change. It should not take the approach that we have moved to the city and we can no longer be socialist as we used to be. In this respect, we support the struggle of Alevis for equal citizenship. It is an important democratic accumulation. They are part of the struggle for democracy. There are already two fundamental democracy dynamics in Turkey. One is the Kurds and the other is the Alevis. Socially, they are involved in the struggle for democracy the most. Of course, laborers are involved, women are involved. In this respect, it is important that Alevis take an active part in the struggle for democracy. In this respect, of course we support their struggle for democracy, their struggle for freedom, their struggle to protect their beliefs against the genocide of faith, against the genocide of culture.