In the second part of this interview, Cemil Bayik, co-president of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about how answers can be found to the problems of Turkey and the Middle East.

Bayik focused in particular on the current discussions in Turkey and the general developments in the context of the Third World War in the Middle East. 

The first part of the interview can be here

At the last meeting of his party, Erdoğan talked about the mentioned photo in Ahlat and said that he would have some good news in the near future. He made this speech after the attacks on Rojava and Shengal (Sinjar). In the meantime, the Iraqi Prime Minister visited Turkey, there was a request for Russia to mediate a meeting with Damascus, and Turkey’s mercenaries held a meeting with the KDP in Hewler (Erbil). Hakan Fidan also went to London and held talks. When all of these are put together, one can see that there is great preparation, but the question is, what are they preparing for?

If the Turkish state wants to play a role in Middle East politics once again, it has to solve the Kurdish question through political and democratic means. Only then can it play a role in the Middle East. But when we look at it, we see that they have no intention of finding a solution through political and democratic means. They aim to fulfill the goals they have set before them in the past; that is, they want to liquidate the PKK, complete the Kurdish genocide, eliminate democratic politics, destroy the achievements of the people, of the democrats, and become the main power in the whole of Turkey. In other words, it wants to establish its hegemony. Like this, it cannot be part of the Middle East. As I said, it is going through a major crisis. And regarding Erdoğan’s mentioned “good news,” the good news was Shevshek (tr. Esenyurt), Merdin (tr. Mardin), Elih (tr. Batman), and Xelfeti (tr. Halfeti). And he says that he will continue. Obviously, they have no intention or aim to solve the Kurdish question.

They want to occupy new territories in Rojava and Syria. This is how they aim to get out of the crisis. But in this way, it is not possible for the Turkish state to get out of the crisis; in fact, the crisis they are experiencing will grow even more. Everything is happening in front of the eyes of everyone. They called Neçirvan Barzani to Turkey, and he came. In Hewler, under the name of celebrating the anniversary of the founding of the Republic of Turkey, the KDP, MIT, the Turkish Consul, and mercenaries affiliated with Turkey held a meeting. Why was this meeting held, and what was its goal? Sudani went to Turkey, and then Turkey attacked Rojava and Shengal. Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan went to London. When we put all these together, we see that they are making a plan. Everyone knows that Britain is fundamental in the Middle East and Kurdish politics. England is the main responsible of the hegemonic system for the Middle East. In the past, Dogan Guresh, after visiting England, said they were given the green light, and then they started to destroy villages, commit “unsolved murder,” torture, massacre, arrest, and many other things alike. Today, a project designed by Britain, America, and Israel is being carried out in the Middle East. This is why Fidan went to England; they want to get the international arena back on their side. If they would solve the Kurdish question, they would be able to achieve this. But they don’t have such a goal. What remains is Rojava. That is, they want authorization to intervene in Rojava and Syria. Because there is Israel and Turkey standing over Syria. There is also Iran, Russia, and America, but America is acting with Israel, and Iran has suffered many blows. Who is left? Israel and Turkey are left. In the past, Erdoğan had shown a map at the UN, and recently, at the last UN meeting, Netanyahu showed his map. Both the Israeli state and the Turkish state are conducting imperial politics. And they do so openly in front of the eyes of everybody. Our people in Shengal and Rojava must be aware of this. The danger is in front of them. They must work to strengthen and develop their unity and self-defense so that they are able to protect themselves against upcoming invasion attacks. If they do not make strong preparations, they will suffer a severe blow. Because these meetings and visits show that there is an extensive plan. And the plan targets Shengal and Rojava. That’s why they must not be lax. They must strengthen their self-defense and unity in every sense. If they do so, the Turkish state’s plan will come to nothing, and the Turkish state will bring upon its own end, let alone get out of the crisis.

You mentioned the appointment of trustees. After Shevshek, they usurped the municipalities of Merdin, Elih, and Xelfeti by appointing trustees. On the one hand, there is talk of brotherhood and equality, but on the other hand, such a policy is being carried out. What does this mean, and how should it be evaluated?

They are not appointing trustees; what is going on is an occupation. Wherever the Turkish state enters, it first hangs its flag. When a state goes to a place and plants its flag there, it means occupation. It sees it as liberating the place from the enemy. The Turkish state sees the Kurds as enemies. As they say in their speeches, “we are brothers, we are Muslims, we have been living together for years.” These are just words. They are trying to hide what they are really doing. But no matter how much they try to hide, everything is in plain sight. When the Turkish state went to Afrin, Serekaniye, and Gire Spi, why did it plant its flag there? It is not their land; they occupied it and planted their flag there. Now they usurp the municipalities and then put up their flags. They take places that are not theirs; that is occupation and colonization. No one should trust these trustees. It has nothing to do with trusteeship; they want to eliminate everything in the name of Kurds and Kurdistan. This is the reality. Some people say, “They occupied our municipalities so many times, and we took them away from them again in the elections. We won our municipalities before, and we will win our municipalities through elections again.” This is a wrong approach. It is not right to wait for elections; you have won with your labor and with your blood, so you must protect your municipalities. You should not let them take them away from you; that is the right thing to do.

The aim of the Turkish state is to make the Kurds accept everything, to take Kurdistan out of Kurdish hands and make it their property. That is why they hang their flags everywhere. That is why they do not accept the rights of the Kurdish people. Whatever they do to the Kurds, they see as their right. This is what the Turkish state and the government take as a basis for the approach towards the Kurds. If they did not take this as a basis, then they would take steps according to their speeches. However, the steps they take have nothing to do with their speeches. They have seized municipalities from Shevshek to Elih, Merdin, and Xelfeti. They are trampling on the will of the people. They do not recognize their will, identity, or rights. Our people must not accept this. In the prison of Amed (tr. Diyarbakir), they tried to make our comrades accept the same. Comrade Kemal, Hayri, Mazlum, and Akif stood against it, and they stood against it at the cost of their lives. In this way, they frustrated the Turkish state. This is what self-defense means. The Turkish state wants to take Kurdistan from us and make it its property, and we need to defend Kurdistan, our labor, our values, and our achievements. If we don’t, it is death for us. Whatever we have gained so far, we have gained through resistance and struggle; nobody has given us anything.

We paid a huge price; we went through great pain, and this is how we created our values and achievements. The Turkish state wants to usurp all of this. How could the Kurdish people, who call themselves patriots and democrats, give in to such occupation and genocide? Maybe some may say that they will give us some rights, but no one gives rights to Kurds. Kurds have created all their values and achieved all their gains through their own struggles and labor. The state wants to usurp even these gains. Who will give us rights? Our people need to understand this well. We ourselves must protect our values, our gains, and our future. If necessary, martyrs will be martyred for this cause. This is the only way the Kurdish people can survive; otherwise, it is not possible.

In light of the experiences of the past, what is the necessary and appropriate road map for the solution to the Kurdish question in Turkey?

The road map on how to solve the Kurdish question is clear. Rêber Apo and the Kurdish people have made it clear. If there is a sincere interest in solving the Kurdish question, they must start by lifting the absolute isolation of Rêber Apo. They must end the Imrali system. They must ensure Rêber Apo’s health and safety and create the conditions for a free life and work. When they implement these, then Rêber Apo can play his role. If these conditions are fulfilled, if steps are taken for Rêber Apo to play his role, then he will solve the Kurdish question, and we and our people will follow whatever he develops. We have said this clearly. There is no problem on the Kurdish front; the problem is on the state front. If they really want us to be brothers and sisters, to live as equals, to take responsibility for this country as they say, then, first of all, they should stop their dirty propaganda. They say that Rêber Apo is a terrorist; they say a lot of things to defame the PKK; none of this is true. They say these things consciously to confuse everyone. They want Rêber Apo, the PKK, and the Kurdish people to be hated so that no solution develops. Because as long as the situation is not solved, they can keep themselves alive through war.

They don’t want a solution. They should stop making such speeches and change their language. Everyone knows that the Turkish state was founded on the struggle of the Kurds, not only on the struggle of the Turks. The Kurds were one of the main forces that played a fundamental role in the establishment of the Republic of Turkey. The Turkish state needs and owes the Kurds. It was the Kurds who opened those lands to the Turks. This is the truth. From Sultan Sencer to the establishment of the Republic, the Kurds have served them. When there were no dangers and problems anymore and when they ensured their own position, then they started to deny the existence of the Kurds. They started saying that the Kurds want to divide them, that the Kurds are traitors, terrorists, and bandits, and that they must be eliminated. They are conducting politics on this basis. The peoples of Turkey should know that it is not the Kurds who are committing treason, but the state; it is not the Kurds, but the Turkish state and the politics of the AKP-MHP government that are promoting disintegration.

They try to erase from history how Kurds and Turks formed an alliance, how they fought side by side, and how Kurds opened their doors to them. They try to pretend that Kurds never existed in history, that they never fought side by side, and that they never established a state together. They have always portrayed the Kurds as a people who want to strike a blow against the Turks. Therefore, massacres against Kurds are acceptable to them; whatever you do to Kurds is right and justified. They conducted such a policy. Everyone should take real history as a basis, not the history written by the Turkish state. Only like this, there will be brotherhood; the question will be understood correctly and solved appropriately. Those who want to solve the Kurdish question in the right way must approach both history and Rêber Apo in the right way. When they do not show a correct approach towards Rêber Apo, it is understood that their intention is not to solve the question but, on the contrary, to deepen the problem. This is a fundamental point.

Until today, they have not given a single self-criticism to the Kurds, never said they were sorry, or admitted anything. They always said, “We have acted together; we are living through this struggle, but we have insulted and betrayed you, for which we apologize to you. From now on, we will act in the same way as we have lived together in history, as we have fought together against the enemy.” They should specify how they will solve the Kurdish question and what their road map is. But we see that they do not define a map for solving the question, nor do they reveal what they have denied in history, nor do they apologize.

On top of that, they are still propagandizing that the Kurds would have betrayed them, that they would tear them apart, that they are bandits and terrorists, and that they should be eliminated. They solely spread poison and enmity. Those who discuss the issue should always point out that if they truly want to create a solution, they must approach Rêber Apo correctly. One must always question why they do not approach the PKK and the history correctly; why they deny the history of the Kurds; and why they insult the Kurds. Those who say they are intellectuals, socialists, or democrats and say that they stand against oppression should take this approach as a basis.

Where in the world has it been seen that one brother has everything and the other has nothing? Or, in other words, where in the world is there an example of one brother massacring the other just because he claims his own existence? There is no such example in the world. What kind of brotherhood is this? They say they are Muslims, but what they do has nothing to do with Islam. Muslims must question what the government’s actions against the Kurds have to do with Islam. It is an insult to Islam; they must not tolerate it, and they must oppose it. They say that the Turkish state is the common state of Turks and Kurds, but if the state is the state of both peoples, why is it that the Turkish people have everything and the Kurdish people are always tortured, massacred, killed, imprisoned, and assimilated? This state is not the state of Turks and Kurds, but only of Turks. It is not the state of the peoples of Turkey; it is only the state of some Turks. No one should deceive himself/herself.

If they sincerely want to solve the Kurdish question, the only right thing to do is to take the system of democratic nation as a basis. Rêber Apo is developing this, and this is the solution. The approach to Rêber Apo must be correct so that the true solution can evolve. There is no other way. Our people should take this as a basis. The nation-state is no solution; the solution is the democratic nation. Everyone should work for this. Kurds, Turks, and everyone who sees himself/herself as an intellectual, a democrat, or socialist should take this as a basis. The attacks against Rêber Apo are attacks against the peoples and the system of democratic nation. That is why they are against both the Rêber Apo and the PKK; that is why they want to discredit them in the eyes of the peoples. In this way, they aim to continue the politics of genocide.

You have stated before that whatever the Kurdish people and democratic forces have achieved so far, they have achieved through their struggle and resistance. If the Kurdish question and the problems in Turkey are to be resolved on a political and legal basis, what kind of responsibility do the Kurdish people, their international friends, and the socialist and democratic public opinion in Turkey have? What kind of attitude should they adopt in a process where such intense special warfare is being waged?

First of all, the Kurdish people should not deceive themselves with the latest speeches and should always strengthen their unity, protect their values, their achievements, and their future, and unite around Rêber Apo. They must always listen to Rêber Apo and lighten the burden on him in every possible way so that he can play his role. This is what is asked of the Kurdish people. The Turkish state’s policy against Rêber Apo, the PKK, and the Kurdish people reached bankruptcy. These steps are being taken because it is bankrupt. If it were not, there would not be such an agenda. Our people need to be well aware of this and increase their struggle based on this. If the struggle is increased, results will be achieved.

Right now, the peoples of Turkey; the socialists, democrats, intellectuals, artists, academics, politicians, and everyone who wants the Kurdish problem to be solved and Turkey to get out of this crisis should stand against the isolation and take action against it. They should work for the implementation of circumstances for a free work environment and free life for Rêber Apo. They should protect Rêber Apo and must stand against the special warfare. Because the state is waging a special war to confuse everyone. Everyone must stand against this and expose this war. Everyone should work for the Turkish state and the government to approach Rêber Apo and the issue correctly so that the problem can be solved. The danger that exists must be eliminated. This is what is asked of them. They should not just demand that the question and the problems be solved; they should struggle for it. The situation of the Turkish state lays open in front of us. No one should be afraid anymore; everyone should struggle for the democratization of Turkey. For democracy to develop in Turkey, the Kurdish question must be resolved. This is not only the duty of Rêber Apo, the PKK, and the Kurds; it is everyone’s duty; it concerns everyone living in Turkey.

If they want to eliminate the problems in the economic, political, social, cultural, and gender dimensions, then they need to solve the Kurdish question first. Therefore, they need to work and not just make statements. They should not just say that a game is being played; if there is a game, they should figure out how to break that game. My suggestion is that the democratic forces in Turkey should form a committee. This committee should develop a stance on how they want to solve the Kurdish question. And it should develop activities based on this. And this committee should focus mostly on activities within Turkish society. Since the Kurdish society is already ready, they need to prepare the society in Turkey, and this can be done by the democratic forces. If they do not organize, determine their road map for a solution, develop their propaganda on this basis, and work among the peoples, the question cannot be solved. This is what is demanded from both Kurds and Turks.

The foreign powers should no longer encourage the Turkish state. Until now, they have supported the Turkish state, and Turkey took courage from this and went against the Kurdish people. They are still dreaming of this, thinking whatever they will do will be seen as part of the Third World War, that everybody depends on them as a member of NATO, as a country with good relations with the EU and Russia. Foreign powers should not further support them, so that the Turkish state does not find the courage. A global freedom campaign was launched, and the European peoples, the international peoples, as well as the socialist and democratic forces, and those who want to be friends with the Kurds, those who are against oppression and fascism, those who are fighting for democracy and freedom, should further develop their work. They must put pressure on both their own state and the Turkish state so that steps are taken. If both internal and external forces work on this basis and if these efforts complement each other, then the Kurdish question will be solved. This will be a relief to everyone.

Elections were held in South Kurdistan at a time when war and conflicts in the Middle East were deepening and spreading. How do you evaluate the elections? What should be the attitude of politicians and the people of southern Kurdistan at a time when there are so many dangers to Iraq and southern Kurdistan?

The Barzani family clan has seized many opportunities in southern Kurdistan. They never wanted to lose them. They put everything at their service. That’s why they don’t want democracy to develop in southern Kurdistan and the will of the Kurdish people to emerge. Therefore, they create high pressure. They realized that their power alone is not enough. They can only maintain their power through collaboration with the Turkish forces. They have become completely subservient to the Turkish state. The Turkish state conducts both Kurdish politics, Iraqi politics, and even Syrian politics through them. The Barzani family clan still thinks that they are using Turkey, but however, the Turkish state uses them and develops its goals in the Middle East. Even though the Barzani family clan and the Turkish state worked for Barzani to be in power on his own as before, it did not work out that way. The people are fed up with the politics of the Barzani clan. This was revealed once more in the elections. If they cannot form a government on their own as before, it is the result of their politics.

Many people reacted against their politics. Because they do not serve southern Kurdistan or the Kurds, it solely serves the Turkish state. They are jeopardizing the gains and status of the people of southern Kurdistan. This is what the people openly expressed through the elections. They stood against the Barzani family clan’s collaborative policy with the Turkish state, which betrayed the Kurds, and against the Turkish state’s occupation policy. Those who stood against this policy led to some developments. Maybe they did not bring about much change, but it became clear that the majority of the people of southern Kurdistan were against the Barzani family clan’s policies and the Turkish state’s policy of occupation. A government needs to be formed in southern Kurdistan now, but the Barzani family clan does not want it to be formed immediately. Just as in Turkey, when the AKP lost the June 7 elections and could not form a government on its own, it deceived the public, bought time, and then continued to rule.

Obviously, the Barzani family clan also tries the same approach. Because if a government is not formed, they will maintain their power and benefit from it. Those who want to form a government must have conditions. The government to be formed must stand against the politics of cooperation with the enemy and treason. It must stand against the Turkish occupation, reject it, and expel them from its territory. The Middle East is currently going through great chaos. Status will change. For the Kurds, there is both a great danger and a great opportunity. For this, national unity must be developed, and the government to be formed must be based on Kurdish unity.

The government to be formed should be based on these three principles. If the government is formed based on them, then it will serve both southern Kurdistan and all Kurdish people well. If the government is not formed on this basis and if it is the same as before, the same policies as before will continue and worsen. In these conditions in Kurdistan and the Middle East, the government of southern Kurdistan must be formed on these three principles. If the government is formed on this basis, it can serve the Kurds. This is the policy that will free southern Kurdistan from this situation.