In the second part of this in-depth interview, Mustafa Karasu, member of the KCK Executive Council, spoke about the killing of little Narin Güran and its implications. Karasu also spoke about what role democratic forces should and could play.

The first part of the interview can be read here.

It has been revealed that 8-year-old Narin was brutally murdered in the village of Tavshantepe in Amed. It has been almost a month, but the fascist Turkish state persistently refuses to reveal the murderers. In a very immoral way, they use her murder to change the political agenda. Every day that her murder is exploited like this, it’s like her life is taken away again. How do you evaluate this incident and the attitude of the fascist Turkish state afterward?

It was really a very sad incident. An incident that the human conscience cannot bear. We wish Narin God’s mercy, and we extend our condolences to the entire Kurdish people. Narin really touched everyone’s hearts with her beautiful smile. She and her smile will not be forgotten. Those who murdered her, the mentality, the structure, the system who are responsible for it, will not be forgiven. It is important to ask who murdered Narin, on the one hand, and on the other one, we must ask, why? It is not completely clear yet. In Turkey of all places, where the state always claims to have everything under control, to monitor everything, to have the best coroners, etc., they still can’t explain what happened after almost a month. This is a really questionable and suspicious situation.

There must be reasons that prevent the results from being published. Nobody in Turkey believes the reasons they give for not presenting anything yet. Everyone has their doubts, and with the little information that has been leaked, doubts seem appropriate. They say there are confessions from individuals after the body was found, yet they are discussing it. Why are they delaying it? This is an important question.

When Narin was still not found, the gendarmerie commander promised, "We’ll find her alive." That’s interesting too. They said they would find her alive, so we thought they must have found a trace. It’s not clear why he said that. The Turkish gendarmerie will surely find her! Is that the truth? Did they search at all, or did they just want to delay it, distract the public, and hope that interest in the case would disappear?

The AKP government used the incident very badly. For a month, all the problems, the crimes of the AKP, the economic problems, all kinds of oppression, the genocidal practices in Kurdistan seemed like they had really been forgotten; they were not on the agenda. A real sensitivity has emerged in society; otherwise, the state might just have silently closed the case. Maybe Narin would never have been found. I remember there was Ayla who disappeared in the 1960s; she was never found. The incident back then was also a hot topic in Turkey for a short time. I guess if the public had not been sensitive, if they hadn’t pushed so hard, Narin would have disappeared in the same way. She would have rotted under the water. The first thing they said was that she had been kidnapped. They even pointed the finger at the PKK. As if the PKK would kidnap children! This was propaganda to cover it up. In fact, those who made that propaganda were themselves involved in the incident. Why do they immediately say that the PKK would kidnap an 8-year-old child and take it to the mountains? This can only come from those who are complicit in the crime.

It is an approach in which they are primarily concerned with covering up, with making the incident forgotten. But this is not an everyday incident that can be dealt with locally. The state is trying to protect itself here. Didn’t Galip Ensarioglu say straight away that “the family is on friendly terms with us”? Ensarioglu works for the state in Amed and is responsible for the special war being waged there. If he had not kept his hand over it immediately, many things would probably have come to light. This needs to be evaluated and scrutinized. Why is so much covered up? How could a murder be committed so easily?

There are families in Kurdistan who have close ties to the Turkish state. They are prepared to commit any outrage for the state. They smuggle drugs for the state, bring weapons across borders, kidnap women, rape and murder. They also help the state to hold occupied territory and, for example, voluntarily become village guards. The state, which aims to destroy the liberation struggle in Kurdistan, depends on such individuals, families and villages who are prepared to commit any outrage if the state gives them land in return and prevents them from being exposed. There are such circles that have gathered around the state. They depend on each other. This is how they want to destroy the Kurdish liberation struggle. Or is it not obvious who Hizbulkontra is? Have they not committed thousands of murders? We know their current state. What did Suleyman Soylu say back then? “You will appreciate them later.”

There are some serious connections in this village…

Exactly. A village guard here, another family collaborating there. In every city, in every district, there are individuals on whom the state relies. That can also be a village or a tribe. In Shirnekh (tr. Sirnak), for example, there is a family called Tatar and Kamik Atak, and in other places there are others. There are such individuals on whom the state relies. They have to be identified.

The state’s policy needs to be questioned and exposed on the occasion of this incident. In Kurdistan, they are trying to dissuade people under the pretext of feudalism and conservatism. This state policy needs to be questioned. This village is such a village, and this family is such a family. It is based on the state. What do they do now? What happened to the black money they were dealing with? How do they get rich in such a short time? This village is part of Amed and lies close to Baglar. Bağlar is one of the most patriotic neighborhoods in Amed. It is obviously being used as a center for attacks against Baglar and Amed. It is a village that the state relies on. Of course, there are other families, but the family that currently is at the center of this incident is deepest in it. This is the Guran family. They testify according to how they agreed among themselves in this murder. Actually, other families are afraid too. If all the villages remain silent, then it is because they know what will happen to them if they speak against the state. Because they know how that family relies on the state and what kind of power they have.

We need to question this state and must remember that this is not the only murder. They did it other times too. They attacked, killed, raped, and kidnapped women many times before. Isn’t it like that? Specialized sergeants rape and attack women based on the power they receive from the state. This is the Turkish state in Kurdistan. But a democratic revolution is going on in Kurdistan. There is a democratic society in Kurdistan. Democratic families based on the free woman have been created. Against these revolutionary developments of freedom and democracy, the state is developing its policy of destruction and repression. This truth must be recognized. Today there is a democratic society in Kurdistan, a democratic society that they have wiped out in Turkey. There is a stance of free women in Kurdistan; democratic and humanitarian values are upheld.

As I pointed out before, there are parts of society that are tied to the state. But Kurdistan cannot be evaluated on the basis of them. The state must be questioned. Those who oppose the situation should start by questioning the state. It is surprising that this only happens to such a limited extent. The developments in Kurdistan are the result of the state’s unquestioned policies.

Yes, while there is a struggle and a democratic revolution in Kurdistan, there is a part that the state has appropriated for itself, which cannot be changed because it is based on the state. The state is an obstacle to democratization, to the free woman and the democratic family. The state tries to bind all the tribes to itself and keep them on their feet with a backward world view. Because they know that if they are captivated by the democratic revolution in Kurdistan, they will no longer be able to do anything against the struggle for freedom.

Then there are the Kemalists. They have always said that Kurdistan is backward and that this is why all the military campaigns to Kurdistan are taking place – to bring civilization to Kurdistan! Such approaches also exist. Instead of criticizing the state, they prefer to simply say that Kurdistan is feudal and backward. Everyone will see the democratic revolution of Kurdistan.

There are also current attacks on tradition. Tradition in itself is not a bad thing. The ethical-moral-political society spits itself out of it. Society has been able to stand on its feet from the past until today because of its ethical, moral, and political values. It’s not like there once was a slave society. Then this ended and a completely new society was born. There already was a state, but the state did not reach almost eighty percent of the world until the age of capitalism. There has never been a state society. There is a social reality with some traditional values, with moral and political values, and with a conscience. It is not right to denigrate this as tradition. It was formed in history. In particular, the male-dominant mentality has been formed, but it is wrong to denigrate the tradition as a whole. How did we get to today? With which values did we come? How were this morality, conscience, and culture formed? It is the wrong sociological point of view to approach it as a whole. They should read the writings of Rêber Apo to understand it correctly.

There was a society even in feudalism, but capitalism also dissolved society. One of Rosa Luxemburg’s most important assessments is that capitalism has to dissolve society in order to survive. The greatest evil of capitalism, the most important feature of its anti-humanity, is that it dissolves society; it dissolves social values. Were these social values bad? They were the moral-ethical-political values created by humanity throughout history. People were solving their own problems. In the past, there was no state. It was not needed. It is the state that sustains the negative aspects of feudalism. The state needs to be questioned. There is a democratic revolution in Kurdistan; through it, the democratic society pushes back tribal chiefs and sect sheikhs. The free individual and democratic society emerge. But in some places, the state keeps them alive for itself.

The democratic family and the free woman are developing. At the same time, there is a family that even tries to cover up a murder because they are so dependent on the state. When Erdoğan speaks about family, he means the male-dominated family, which does not include women. The woman is completely absent; the head is male; everything is male. But the democratization of the family develops solely through the free women’s struggle. And that has developed in Kurdistan. In that respect, if they want to look for a backwardness, they should look for it in Turkey.

The other day in Ordu, a grandmother took a child and threw it off a balcony to kill it. Also in Tekirdag, something similar happened. The democratic mentality is not developed in Turkey. The state prevails and prevents it. Which democratic culture can develop where there is so much Kurdish hostility? This is the policy of the state. It is the result of an authoritarian mentality and Kurdish hostility. You cannot solve the situation without opposing this policy. Everyone is inflicting violence on each other. This is what society has become. There is a democratic solution to the Kurdish question. If this attitude towards the Kurds is left behind, then all these contradictions in Turkey will be solved.

Galip Ensarioglu has clearly indicated that they are not saying anything because the family is connected to them. Nevertheless, they can’t present anything yet. Presumably, they will ultimately pin the whole thing on a single person in order to protect the family. Because they know that if they succeed in getting the family out of the incident, they will be even more closely tied to them. On the other hand, they are afraid that if they can’t get them out of it, other families and individuals who are still tied to them will break away from them.

The question that remains now is what role the democratic forces have to play.

There should be no cacophony. Everything is discussed, everything is made ambiguous. In this way, of course, the state and those who want to hide this murder benefit from the ambiguity.

The women’s movement and the Kurdish people embraced Narin. This is important. This must be held up. Narin should be kept alive as a social conscience. This conscience should be mobilized not only for Narin’s murder but also for all the other murders and attacks that took place. Whenever a Kurdish child is killed by the state, action must be taken. I think the opposition and democratic forces should evaluate the developments accurately.

Rêber Apo always points out that capitalism disintegrates society, but he also underlines that society does never die. These social values we are talking about were formed over thousands of years. They were formed over tens of thousands of years. The human is a social being. Erdoğan is the most immoral person in the world. He has no social conscience. There is no other person who evaluates everything for the benefit of his own power as much as he does. He said, “We will do whatever is necessary, whether it takes.” This is the mentality; whatever the imam does, the congregation does. He said, “We will kill both women and children,” and he killed them. He killed in Rojava, in all of Kurdistan, and he continues to do so. The AKP government’s lack of social conscience and morality needs to be exposed more.