Urs Matsinger is a 78-year-old Swiss lawyer who read Kurdish People's Leader Abdullah Öcalan's defences and adopted his thoughts. As part of the work carried out in line with the global campaign ‘Freedom for Abdullah Öcalan, a Political Solution to the Kurdish Question’, ANF talked to the Swiss jurist about the İmralı torture and isolation system, Öcalan’s defences that continue to resonate globally and the political-military developments in the Middle East.

Kurdish leader Abdullah Öcalan is an important thinker and the leader of scientific socialism, said Urs Matsinger, noting that the isolation imposed on him prevented the development of socialist science, in other words the science of society. According to Urs Matsinger, Öcalan’s lawyers will not get results through routine applications and different actions and civil disobedience should be tried: “There should be serious lobbying in Europe. Europe is dealing diplomacy cards. If the Kurds are strong in diplomacy, they will bring down a second Lausanne process.”

First of all, how did your interest in Kurdistan and the Middle East begin? What is the source of your closeness to the Kurdish people?

I have read and followed the Middle East. There is a chaos that is constantly developing there; there are forces that want and feed this chaos. Some call that land Mesopotamia, others the Golden Crescent or the Taurus-Zagros range. Kurds have been living there for thousands of years and they have the right to a status. They are struggling for this. I do not see the name Kurdistan as wrong. It could be called Kurdistan, but Mr Abdullah Öcalan makes a more inclusive definition and defines it as the homeland of the peoples, the place of freedom of the Anatolian peoples. The definition of the Democratic Nation is also related to the ethnic diversity living in the geography. Of course, only Kurds are struggling to liberate this place. They are a colonised people, but they still resist. This inspiration for freedom harbours an incredible potential. I don't know how much chance they have.

‘Kurds are rebuilding the renaissance of the Middle East’

The 50-year struggle of the Kurds has created great values and opportunities. They meet with their own resistance struggle and culture. They are combining the Til Xelef culture and the sociality of Göbeklitepe. Today, Kurds are rebuilding the renaissance of the Middle East. Not only sociality is being built. Films are being made in the midst of the ongoing war in the mountains. This is very interesting. I still can't believe it. On the one hand, there are those who sing folk songs; on the other hand, there are those who write books. There are both artistic and intellectual productions. I was very excited when I saw these.

‘The direct interlocutor, constructive consciousness and practical power of democracy’

Marxism is updating itself. The only power that enables this is consciousness. They do not have a problem with the leadership, but unfortunately Mr Abdullah Öcalan, whom they see as their leader, is in an Antonio Gramsci-like isolation. If Turkey wants to build a real democracy and has such an intention, it must read the political and historical perspectives of Mr Abdullah Öcalan correctly. This could be a chance. South Africa utilised Nelson Mandela at the last moment. Mr Abdullah Öcalan is not the crutch of democracy, but its direct interlocutor, constructive consciousness and practical power. This is not a revolution of mentality that passes through our world like a comet. It is a completely different one. Marxism has not been forgotten, but it has not remained as it was. I do not think there is a force that can be opposed to those who resist in the mountains and plains of Zagros.

'A tradition of resistance has emerged, concepts have been reinterpreted'

Let's say it was physically destroyed, but the social tradition of resistance is continuous. Others may be uncomfortable with this sentence, but I, as a supporter of democracy and a friend of the Kurdish people, can easily say that a tradition of resistance has emerged. Concepts have been reinterpreted. Look, the book in front of you describes the Sumerian Priest States. Mr Abdullah Öcalan was able to write it under very difficult conditions, but he interpreted the truth so finely that it should not be difficult to understand. He interpreted the device he was against by going to its source and all Sumerologists were astonished. He analysed the characters one by one. He defined Humbaba as the chief of nature and natural society; he interpreted Gilgamesh as power and Enkidu as the collaborator of power. This is a tremendous mythological fiction. It relates Kurdish sociality to class civilisation and contains instructive political messages and warnings. As far as I can follow, in the current war, there are still Enkidu-like circles who are in cooperation with the power. This situation is very bad. This was also the case in the relationship between the Persians and the Medes. Some characters from history also appear on the stage in the present.

There has been no news from Kurdish People's Leader Abdullah Öcalan for 42 months. This situation is also a blow to social science. As you may appreciate, Abdullah Öcalan is a philosopher, a thinker. Can we say that isolation is also a social blow in this respect?

The danger is that the capitalist forces maintain the centre of control and supervision in the form of the panopticon designed and implemented by Jeremy Bentham. This form of control is actually an intensified isolation. The power represses and isolates individuals and societies that it deems dangerous by nature. Therefore, there is not only the isolation on İmralı, but also an imposition of isolation against the resisting society. It should not be considered as limited to Turkey. Turkey is only acting as a guard in İmralı. The main responsible parties are the central and regional hegemonic powers. Undoubtedly, Mr Öcalan is an important thinker and the leader of scientific socialism. Isolation prevents the development of socialist science, that is, the science of society. The study of necessary social change is related to the development of social science. The reconstruction of sociality is achieved through the development of social science. Isolation prevents this. It is true, it can naturally be considered as a blow to social science.

‘Kurds should embrace their leader more’

You say 42 months of isolation, but this isolation started when the gates of İmralı were opened. İmralı Island is a control and supervision mechanism that was designed for Mr Öcalan even before he was brought to Turkey from Nairobi with the support of international powers. Sometimes, reactions are limited to condemning the isolation. I think Kurds should embrace their leader more because this is a chance for them. I live with books. I get to know the books themselves rather than the people who write them. I first got to know Mr Öcalan by reading his books. As a lawyer, I would like to visit Öcalan in İmralı if I am allowed to do so. This is a terrible situation! Even his own lawyers cannot hold any meetings. It is a practice of isolation that exceeds Turkey and even the CPT.

You have read Abdullah Öcalan's defences, you are familiar with his ideas. How do you interpret his ideas, for example, the initiative for a democratic nation, and how do you evaluate the experience in Rojava in this context?

I don't know how correctly I understand, but Mr Abdullah Öcalan sees the existence of the state as a threat to a moral and political society, or whether there is a state or not, the main thing he emphasises is the boundary of a society woven with morality and politics. This boundary should not be misunderstood. It is not even remotely related to a permanent system like the nation-state. The struggle for human socialisation is essentially a struggle for socialism. Therefore, the roots of socialism are as old as humanity. Mr Öcalan has scientifically examined socialism down to the deepest roots of sociality. Again, he did this by referring to Göbeklitepe. He started from a place very close to his own village. I think this is not a coincidence. Urfa is the centre of both civilisation and sociality. It is also a place where very important social leaders were born and made their ideological debut. Mr Öcalan also embarked on a new search in those lands. He wanted to meet his roots. I think Mr Öcalan does not want something new on earth. He is trying to restore the social harmony that modernity has scattered and disrupted.

‘Öcalan has done very serious work in terms of social science’

The democratic nation is neither a dogmatic dialectic nor an imposition from the top or an order. It is based on the localisation of politics. At one time there were discussions about cantons and states. I don't know what happened to that. There were friends who translated Mr Öcalan's letters. I read them there. I think Mr Öcalan was looking for the most systematic democratic design against the nation state in the local organisation of politics. There are two reasons for this insistence; one is alienation and the other is the consciousness of ahistoricity. How can a society that has suffered a genocide be able to bring itself into existence? This is a terrible thing. Here you have the Alps, the Jura Mountains. It goes all the way to Austria. There's no movement because there's no problem. They all have bunkers. There are only places where people can protect themselves against a possible war. In the mountains of Kurdistan there are those who resist in war tunnels. The capitalist system uses this place as a central bank. It is also used as the diplomacy field of the colonial states. Remember, a hundred years ago, Kurdistan was completely dismembered with the Treaty of Lausanne. From this point of view, I don't know if Mr Öcalan, who has confronted the forces of modernity, can achieve this, but he has done very serious work in terms of social science. He shook the new world order. And he did this under isolation.

'It is foolish to think that ISIS spontaneously emerged in the Middle East'

Yes, a democratic region was created in Rojava through the canton system. I know it was not easy, especially the battle of Kobanî. Kurds are a warrior people. Instead of talking about the Kurds' resilient nature, we should think about why radical Islamists have turned to Rojava. Every crisis in the Middle East reminds me of the Cairo Conference held after World War I. You know, at that conference, it was decided to create capital for new crises in order to keep the Kurdish issue alive. This is very important. I mean, it is foolish to think that ISIS spontaneously emerged in the Middle East. Even the fact that it is orientated only towards the lands where Kurds live shows us how uncomfortable modernity is with the existence of Kurds. They tried a genocide similar to pogroms. They forced people into exile. The Jews were able to turn such processes to their advantage. Let's see if the Kurds can do the same. This is a question mark, but I am a little hopeful because they have a leader like Mr Öcalan. Even though he is under isolation, even a meeting can change everything.

A motion prepared by Fehlmann Rielle Laurence, a member of the Swiss Federal Parliament from the Socialist Party (SP) and signed by 11 members of the Federal Parliament drew attention to the isolation in İmralı. In the motion submitted to the Swiss Federal Council for reply, Switzerland was requested to take action on the isolation conditions Abdullah Öcalan is in. What else do you think the parties and organisations in Switzerland can and should do about this issue?

It is impotent to expect the isolation to be lifted by motions, but this solidarity and goodwill of the Socialist Party is an indisputable democratic attitude. Of course, there should also be an attitude to mobilise international institutions against this isolation, which violates human rights. The stance of the Greens and socialist parties is appropriate. They also question the relations between Switzerland and Turkey. ‘Turkey is acting as the guardian of this isolation,’ said Mr Öcalan. This is true. Turkey did not make the decision to impose the isolation; rather the USA should be held responsible. Turkey cannot afford to enforce this isolation. Therefore, I do not think that the well-intentioned bureaucrats in Switzerland will get any results. I see it only as bureaucratic training. If they turn this and similar pressures and criticisms into a marathon, even if there is no result, it will be reflected in the public opinion.

‘There should be serious lobbying efforts in Europe’

This again relies on the skills of the Kurds in the diaspora. The Kurdish population is increasing in Europe. Like the Jewish communities that spread across the world in waves throughout history, Kurds were displaced from their lands after the genocide. There should be serious lobbying efforts in Europe. Europe is dealing diplomacy cards. If the Kurds are strong in diplomacy, they will bring down a second Lausanne process.

It can't be easy to spend 27 years in İmralı conditions, can it?

It's terrible. We are passing through a historic crossroads. His ideas are needed for the freedom of the Kurds and their place in the new century. He is getting old. The problem of law and justice in Turkey is a serious issue. I don't know if isolation will be lifted. Society as a whole lives under the threat of isolation and genocide.

Mr Öcalan's lawyers and many human rights defenders say that the CPT is being political in its position on İmralı. Do you think that the CPT is under political pressure regarding Mr Öcalan's situation?

If Mr Öcalan's lawyers think that they will get results through routine applications, this is nothing more than a mistake. Different actions should be tried. Attorneyship is a social and moral profession rather than a legal identity. In Turkey, being a lawyer is generally used as a stepping stone to the bureaucracy. I follow the Middle East and I see that this is the case in very few places. In my opinion, being a lawyer for the people is more valuable than being a middle-class bureaucrat. Of course, being Mr Öcalan's lawyer is something else. He is defending himself. His defences are here, I read them, and I believe that the people in Strasbourg have read them, and the CPT has also read them. Obviously, there is no need for a lawyer, but those who want to play their role in these circumstances should raise awareness. Civil disobedience type actions can be taken. This applies not only to lawyers but to all intellectuals. It is clear that nothing will be achieved by applying to the CPT. CPT applications are valuable as a practice, but I do not think they will yield results.

As a friend of the Kurds, what would you like to say in the name of solidarity?

Yes, I am not exactly a Kurdish friend. I could not be a partner in their struggle. Their struggle for freedom touched my emotions. Mr Öcalan's thoughts affected me. I was especially impressed by his adaptation of Murray Bookchin's ecological and anarchist ideas as a solution method to the problems of the society he lived in. It is a bit difficult, but they resist. One thing must be remembered: gains are made through diplomacy, not on the battlefield. There was no diplomat defending Kurdish gains at Lausanne, but until Lausanne, the Kurds were the fighting force that protected Turkey's current territorial borders. They were deceived. Rebellions started and are still going on. There is the PKK rebellion, they are resisting. They have been resisting for 50 years. There is no diplomatic table. Why? Because the Kurdish question in the Middle East must be permanent. There is such a decision. One must be prepared for new decisions and treaties. I don't know how much the Kurdish diplomats are able to break through. Lobbies can be formed.