Researcher and writer Patrice Franceschi told ANF that Western democracies are currently relatively weak and Turkey's NATO membership complicates matters. He added: "As long as Turkey is part of NATO, it has to be considered an ally of European states. In reality, Turkey should be expelled from NATO. It has no place there because its entire program, agenda, and will are against the West, democracies, and everyone else. Therefore, while a country like Turkey is in NATO, it is extremely difficult to help the Kurds." 

Franceschi is a French researcher and writer who closely follows the region. He is also the author of the book Dying for Kobanê. 

The Ba'ath regime fell following attacks led by armed groups under Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) on November 27. How do you evaluate the fall of the regime? 

I should state that the fall of Bashar al-Assad's regime is a good thing, but those who overthrew it could be worse. Just because a despicable regime collapses doesn't necessarily mean that its successors will be better. They could be worse. Remember the situation with the Shah of Iran in 1979. There was a tyrant, and when he was overthrown, everybody thought that his successors would be better, but things took a far more terrible turn. Therefore, I think it's very positive that Bashar al-Assad was removed from power because his rule was drenched in blood. However, we must be cautious, as those who take his place could be worse, especially for the Kurds and all minorities in Syria. 

HTS is implementing Erdoğan's agenda 

You also study jihadist organizations. How should we assess the structure of Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), the jihadist group currently being proposed as the future of Syria? 

To put it bluntly, Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham is a coalition of Islamist groups directed, financed, and supported by Turkey and additionally funded by Qatar. HTS is currently implementing the agenda set by Ankara and Erdoğan. It is uncertain whether at some point al-Jolani (HTS leader) will try to free himself from Erdoğan and pursue his own agenda, but for now, he is obedient to Ankara. Obeying Ankara means avoiding, at least temporarily, mistakes similar to those made by the Taliban when they seized power in Kabul. That’s why al-Jolani, HTS, and Erdoğan are trying to present themselves to the West as extremely honorable partners. 

We in the West must not fall for this façade. HTS is a radically Islamist group, particularly dangerous for Kurds, Christians, Yazidis, and all minorities. However, they will try to convince us they are reliable partners. If we fall into this trap and, for example, grant them a seat at the United Nations or remove them from the “terrorist organizations list,” we will pay a heavy price. Once they gain such privileges, they will implement their real agenda, starting with establishing Sharia law everywhere. This would be disastrous, especially for Kurds and other minorities. 

There is no such thing as a moderate or modern Islamist organization 

HTS and its leader are being marketed in the West today as a moderate or modern Islamist group. Yet their links to ISIS and their origins are deeply rooted in a similar tradition. How do you evaluate this Western narrative? Isn't this a danger for the future? 

This is a very big danger for the future because there is no such thing as a moderate or modern Islamist organization. Such a concept does not exist. They are Islamists, plain and simple. Therefore, they are enemies of the West, enemies of democracy, enemies of the Kurds, and enemies of minorities. We must not be swayed by the communication campaigns trying to portray them as something else. They are what they are: al-Qaeda, nothing else. 

The idea of the Ottoman empire is being implemented in Syria 

While HTS's role in shaping Syria's future is being debated, the Turkish state and its affiliated militias continue their occupation attacks on the Autonomous Administration regions in Northern and Eastern Syria. Is it possible to talk about a political solution in a process where these attacks continue? 

Currently in Syria, there is a situation where, on the one hand, al-Jolani and HTS aim to conquer southern Syria and integrate it into the idea of the Ottoman Empire, and on the other hand, there is an effort to eliminate the Kurds in Northern and Eastern Syria. The Turkish state has assigned this task to the Syrian National Army (SNA). 

The SNA, which is attacking the Kurds, has occupied Manbij and is besieging Kobanê. These are mercenaries, more or less Islamist, entirely salaried, trained, and nurtured by Ankara. Since 2018, they have been involved in the ethnic cleansing of Afrin. They were also sent to Nagorno Karabakh to ethnically cleanse Armenians. Today, they are trying to eliminate as many Kurds as possible from northern Syria. All of this is part of Erdoğan's ambition. 

The West must understand this maneuver and continue to support the Kurds by preventing the SNA from taking Kobanê or even Raqqa. 

Kobanê is a symbol, and if it falls, we all lose 

They want to occupy Kobanê, which is a symbol of resistance against the Islamic State for everyone. You wrote a book called Mourir pour Kobanê (Dying for Kobanê) about the Kobanê resistance. How do you evaluate the Turkish state’s desire to occupy this city, which is a symbol for the peoples of the world? 

What happened immediately after Kobanê's victory, that is, the victory of the Kurds against ISIS, holds highly symbolic importance. If we abandon our Kurdish comrades to the hands of Turkish mercenaries and the Turkish army and allow Kobanê to fall into their hands, it would signify, in a sense, the end of a world. In other words, it would mean the end of the West's freedom in the face of terrorism and Turkish totalitarianism. 

Western powers - the Americans, the French, and the Europeans - must act to prevent the Turks from occupying such a symbolic city. 

The Rojava model terrifies them 

Amid the chaos in Syria, a model was established in Rojava that offers solutions to all the region's problems. Why is this model not being considered and discussed for Syria's future? 

The problem is that the model proposed and currently operating in Rojava is genuinely an interesting one that could transform the entire Middle East. But the rest of the Middle East does not want this model because Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Turkey, and all the countries surrounding Rojava oppose this idea. For them, democracy, gender equality, women’s liberation, and secularism are seen as poison. 

They fear the spread of Rojava's excellent model to their own societies, and they do not want it. That’s why our brave comrades defending this model around the world are met with widespread opposition. This is the core of the issue. 

We must stand with the Kurds 

Another danger in the region is the resurgence of ISIS. Turkish attacks have also led to movements among jihadists in prisons and camps in Rojava. As someone who knows the region well, what kind of threat are we facing here? 

The seizure of camps like Roj and Al-Hol by jihadists is a huge danger for everyone. These camps hold over 50,000 jihadists and their families. These camps in Rojava are ticking time bombs for the entire West and all democracies. 

I hope Western awareness of this issue will prompt Americans, French, and Europeans to prevent the Turks and their Islamist allies from seizing these camps. What is happening right now is very serious, and everything is at stake. Unfortunately, the transition period in the U.S. between Trump and Biden seems to have left Americans in a state of uncertainty that their adversaries are exploiting to advance their agendas. 

I hope that before 20 January, the right response will be made, and we will give full support to the Kurds. 

Finally, let me say this: the free world - essentially the West, but also the Kurds and a few other nations - must recognize that what is happening in Northern Syria is of fundamental importance for freedom worldwide. Our support and assistance to the Kurds must be complete right now. Otherwise, the entire world faces the risk of collapse.